Your favorite par 4 at Cypress: 9,13, or 17?

[Jimmy Muratt]

Cypress Point has some of the best short and mid-length par 4's anywhere.  Which is your favorite par 4 at Cypress Point, 9, 13, or 17?  

9:  it seems to give the player the most options and the risk/reward factor and has beautiful framing behind the green with the large sand dune.

13:  it incorporates the slight dogleg and has a risky tee shot daring you to aim further right.  It also has great bunkering around the green.
 
17:  a great tee shot with the carry over the Pacific also tempting you to aim further right to allow for a shorter iron into the green.  
 
I, personally, favor the 13th.  I think the player is faced with difficult decisions with their tee shot and second shots and the green is surrounded by terrific bunkering.

What does everyone else think??

[ed_getka]

I prefer #9 for the number of options that are presented. You can lay up and have an approach that requires very precise control to a shallow green, especially to a top left pin. Or the tight drive to open up the length of the green to your pitch. For such a short hole I find it interesting that you have to pull off at least one very precise shot.

I don't understand why you think #13 is tempting you to drive right. The green seems to open up better from the left, even more so when the pin is on the right lower level. I hope as the bunkering matures it will look a little more like the pix in Geoff S.'s book. The shapes look good, but the edges are a little too refined at this point. (this is a very minor quibble on my part). Cypress remains my favorite course (I would send prospective architects to study NGLA for two weeks, but Cypress gets my juices flowing a little more).

[Steve Lapper]

Okay. I'll take the bait ,

  My favorite of them all is 17 (with great defrence to 9, an immortal classic balance of beauty and fear). My reasoning is simple: 17 offers a skewed choice to the tee shot. A good player has to think of putting the ball on the strip of fairway along the cliff's edge. It is the only way to get a clean second shot at the green without interference from the trees.
  Any other shot must be sooo far left(and long) so as to give the player a sliver of opening at the green and a ground variable opportunity. It is at least 1-2 clubs farther out to the left and leaves 1-2 longer clubs for the approach as well.
  A long iron or three wood to the fairway strip on the right side (and it looks narrower than it is) leaves a much shorter approach iron with room for error long/left and slightly right.
  All of this adds up to make this the absolute finest 4 par on the course. Lets not forget just how visually stunning the hole is and how often the aural assault from the sea lions(the seals do the same on the 15th tee) on the nearby rocks interferes with ones concentration.
  Hands down the winner: #17.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

My favorites are 12 or 13 but I like 11 just as much. That is a great run of par 4's. 11 is a man's hole and one of the great strong pare 4's in golf. I like 12 and 13 for reasons mentioned herein and the combination of site lines of the tee and the green complexes. I really think 12 is far superior to 13.

[ForkaB]

I like 8 the best.  Textbook "bite off as much as you can chew" tee shot.  Fantastic "green within greens" green.  A great scruffy right hand side from which you can actually play your ball, but only successfully if you have inner peace and great skill.  A hole that blends into its "natural" surroundings much better than its more hyped next door neighbor (#9).

After that, 13 and 11, for the reasons JohnB and others have mentioned.  I think the fact that I (and others) can find seemingly "odious comparisons" to such holes as 9 and 17 shows how "great" Cypress really is.

[Matthew Mollica]

Slapper recently typed -

Okay. I'll take the bait ,

  My favorite of them all is 17 (with great defrence to 9, an immortal classic balance of beauty and fear). My reasoning is simple: 17 offers a skewed choice to the tee shot. A good player has to think of putting the ball on the strip of fairway along the cliff's edge. It is the only way to get a clean second shot at the green without interference from the trees.
  Any other shot must be sooo far left(and long) so as to give the player a sliver of opening at the green and a ground variable opportunity. It is at least 1-2 clubs farther out to the left and leaves 1-2 longer clubs for the approach as well.
  A long iron or three wood to the fairway strip on the right side (and it looks narrower than it is) leaves a much shorter approach iron with room for error long/left and slightly right.
  All of this adds up to make this the absolute finest 4 par on the course. Lets not forget just how visually stunning the hole is and how often the aural assault from the sea lions(the seals do the same on the 15th tee) on the nearby rocks interferes with ones concentration.
  Hands down the winner: #17.

With the greatest respect to #9, for it's myriad of outcomes, and #13 for a classic diagonal influencing the tee shoe, I have to agree with the quoted reply above, and vote for #17.

Further, as good as it must be to rip a long iron onto the centre of #9 fairway with that dune in the background, or to see a power fade glide over the sand and onto the fairway at #13, it would be hard to imagine a better thrill to make the jump from tee to ideal landing spot, over the Pacific, onto the fairway at #17  (perhaps hitting the green in reg ? )

Matt

[Paul Richards]

I have to say I agree with Rich.  #8 is probably the best, but it may qualify as a "short" four par for this discussion.  

That would make #17 be my favorite of the three.  Standing on that tee, with the seals barking, the wind howling, the sea crashing and then having to hit your tee shot to ....  where?

Ah, Cypress.  How beautiful is thy bounty!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'd vote for #12, it may be my favorite par-4 on any course.

[A_Clay_Man]

Now this is a tough Q, cept for the fact that I'm on record as #9 being one of the greatest in the world (that I've seen)

One of my favorites which isn't mentioned here is #1. For reasons that are not only GCA related but just for the fact that you are about to embark on an epic journey.

[TEPaul]

Rich Goodale said:

"I like 8 the best.  Textbook "bite off as much as you can chew" tee shot.  Fantastic "green within greens" green.  A great scruffy right hand side from which you can actually play your ball, but only successfully if you have inner peace and great skill.  A hole that blends into its "natural" surroundings much better than its more hyped next door neighbor (#9)."

Rich:

How could any hole blend into its natural surroundings better than #9? It's about 99.9% natural surroundings anyway--ie about 99.9% the way it was before the course was built. All MacKenzie did there was build a tee, clear a bit of brush off the left side, lay down a fairway and lay grass on an area that became the green. He actually did build a little bunker in the waste area to the right--but who knows why? #9 could actually be one of the most totally natural holes in the world that noone would really suspect of being.

PS:

My favorite par 4 at Cypress would be #9.

[Lou_Duran]

Shivas likes #8 because he can reduce it to a mere 3-wood and flip SW.  If it was on another course it would be critized for its reverse camber (I believe that this is Brauer's term for a reverse dogleg) and blindness.  I like how it fits the land, and how demanding the second shot is for us mere mortals.

How about #14?  Play it close to the line of instinct, and the trees on the right come into play.  Play it on the safe left side and you have a difficult angle to the green guarded by trees down that side, and a lie with the ball below your feet.  Missing the green left and or long is sure bogey.

If they reclaim some of the coast on the right of 17 to provide a real strategic option, that might become my favorite par 4.  As it is, there are just too many fantastic short to medium lenght holes to choose just one based on very limited experience.  

[ForkaB]

Tom P

I said what I said partly to get you to come out of the funk you've been in because you couldn't honestly post more than a pitiful pittance on the "Odorous Comparisons" thread.  I also, however, actually do believe what I said!  I personally think that 8 looks more "natural" than 9.  MacK MAY have moved less dirt/sand on the latter (I don't know), but is that the only, or even the prime criterion for "naturalness?"  To me, 8 blends in seamlessly to the dunescape in which it sits, and offers multiple challenges.  9 just sits there and says:  "Hiya, kids, hiya, hiya, hiya!  I'm a sand dune!  Hit me!"

Hapy Hogmanay Eve

Rich

[Bob_Huntley]

Normally I would agree with Ben Hogan, No. 12 was his favorite here and just about anywhere. However, where he was playing a long or mid-iron into the green, I have seen members of this site, no slouches mind you, hit as little as a nine iron in. Because of this, I must come back to Nos. 8,9,and 17.

No. 8 is a definite two shotter with a two tier green of diabolical mien. The front left bunker has been eased making for an easier shot to the upper pin position. The drive for any competent player is not menacing. All in all a wonderful hole but not quite as good as nine.

No.9 can be a one shotter. I know, I did it myself thirty odd years ago.  The sensible shot is a mid iron off the tee and an eight, nine or wedge in. When the pin is at the bottom of the green it is an easier hole than No. 8... but on top it becomes a beast. The green slope on No.9 anywhere else, would be declared goofy golf, but at the Point it is considered interesting.

Of the three, No. 17 has to be the one. Although I hate trees in the middle of fairways the cypresses here force a number of options. The landing area to the right of the fairway alongside the cliff has been recuced over the years and a program to expand that area is being made. Not only the varying options of playing the hole, but the exposure to the elements that are generally absent at Nos. 8 and 9 make this the best par 4 on the course.

[DMoriarty]

Pretty difficult to pick one after only a single play (where I butchered all the short par 4s), but I am going to go with 8 as well, if for no other reason than what it symbolizes to me when I look back at my brief experience on the course.

It screams what the rest of the course whispers:  "No modern architect would ever show the courage and wisdom to build me.  That is why my preeminence will never be challenged."

I know, some will claim that it was just Mackenzie's lack of machinery and resources that made eight possible.  If true, this is a valuable lesson in and of itself.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

These two pictures of the 8th at Cypress are Dave Schmidt's.

[Bob_Huntley]

I said earlier that the tee shot at No.8 was not menacing. In looking at Dave Schmidt playing the hole from the back markers, I've changed my mind!

[Bob_Huntley]

Ben Dewar:

How on earth do you do that? Get the photographs on the site I mean.

[NAF]

The thing I miss about CP besides the wonderful bunkering that #13 had in its natural state is the lost knoll in the landing area on #8.  It was a wild outcropping and you can see it in Geoff Shack's pictures in his book.  Now it has be cleaned up and is just a bump in the fairway.

[Mike Benham]

Great photos ...

Huckaby and I were having a discussion last week about the tee shot on 8, and it is much more menacing from the back tee markers than the forward set when I played years ago.

However, for all the reasons stated above by Mr. Huntley et al, I vote for #17.  If I recall, the prevailing wind is into the golfer or quartering from the right which makes a) the hole play longer; b) the drive down right side more risky ... and the approach to 17 has no bail out area ...

[Matt_Ward]

Got to go with #8 -- although the others mentioned are each superb in their own right!

[david trandel]

DO we really think this sis Dave's finish???  Where is his Bud Light???i

These two pictures of the 8th at Cypress are Dave Schmidt's.

[A_Clay_Man]

I know when I read this thread I noticed the lack of both #8 and #12. I guess thats just what makes CPC so great. So when someone asks what makes  a course great we just refer 'em to this thread.

From the pictures the tee shot really doesn't do it justice. It is even more awesome due to the area to the left of and in the photo. It turns out to be the ninth coming back and has this caverness feel about it. On my trip around I had the terrible luck of taking the advice of an inexperienced caddie who aimed me up the right and told a distance and line, both of which were executed and I was well into the dune. So the second picture is a hole I am very unfamiliar with. Boy is that left!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Why didn't anyone mention #18?    Really, I liked the hole despite butchering it.  Like Dave, I like uphill approaches.

#4 wasn't mentioned by anyone.  What terrific fairway bunkering.  Too bad the green is too severe for today's modern green speeds.

Bob,

On #12, I hit a pitching wedge in for my 2nd shot.  Hit it fat, of course   .


Tough choice for favorite, for sure.  Despite missing a birdie on #9 by an inch, the fairway on a lay-up tee shot isn't any narrower than going for the green, really.  I suppose that tempts you more to go for the green.  I'll have to say #8, I suppose, even thought the hole sets up for a right-handed fade and I draw the ball.  The green has four different sections, back right and back left would be doozy pin locations.  

[THuckaby2]

I kinda like 9 because the more timid you are, the less you room you have to play with... that is, the closer you get to the green the WIDER it is... you can't see it from the tee that well, but there really is a lot of room side to side right up near the green - there's about 50 yards of fairway in between the dune area on the left and the huge dune on which the green sits.. this extends all the way over to the right... a shot of 220 yards or so can go to a pretty wide place... But it's never going to be just "bang away" at that, because you do have to make the clearing if you go left (no bargain) and the visual tells you its too tight going straight or right....

These are all wonderful golf holes in my book.

My favorite might be 14, for reasons stated above by Lou... 13 is a damn fine golf hole also...

Note re 12, oh yes, Mr. Burroughs did get it way down there... but the risk going right is a big one - Scott took the risk, got the reward.  Ed Getka did also.  I'd imagine Dave "I've never met a risk I won't take" Schmidt could get one inside 100 yards if he hits it correctly... For us mortals, the timid who go left and safe, it's gonna be a middle iron even today.  I had 150 in, playing at least 170 due to wind, cold, etc.

TH