How much do architects really improve over the course of their careers?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I wanted to read it again...
Great words, especially from someone "still young in the game" and ""still building for his ego" ....  

Jeff:  Some of the courses I've been proudest of were projects where the client pretty much had no input other than to do our best work.  But in all of those instances, it's driven me crazy for years afterward because they don't understand what they have, and don't do a good job maintaining it.  (I won't name names here, most people are well aware of 2-3 which fit the description.)  So be careful what you wish for!

Also, I like your mentors' perspective.  A project will almost always turn out bad if you're convinced it will do so; a positive attitude goes a long way.  I know Mike Clayton and Bruce Hepner walked away from their first site visit to Barnbougle Dunes saying that it was a great piece of land, but that it would never happen ... fortunately we hung around long enough to find the right combination to make it happen.

Paul:  I've often thought that the relationships between a "name" pro and his clients are entirely different than what the rest of us deal with; the clients are more acutely aware of wanting the pro to be happy having his name on the course at the end of the day, whereas with Jeff or Lester or me they just want it to be done with.    Jack Nicklaus' associates have been really surprised at Sebonack just how involved Mr. Pascucci has been in our design decisions; the majority of their clients just let them run with things.  But I would argue that Sebonack is a better product BECAUSE Michael has been very involved ... and after all it really is his money we're spending, so he ought to like the finished product.

[paul cowley]

TomD.....clients being clients are generally bound by the bottom line, with the  'name pro's happiness' of much lesser consequence.......and the dirt is still moved the same way and the deadlines and budgets are probably similar to what you, Lester and Jeff experience  ....I really don't feel like we get a bye when it comes to product expectation.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:  I didn't mean to say I thought you get a "bye" in the end product; everyone's courses are judged by the same people in the end.  But you did say that you thought you guys rarely had trouble with client relationships, and I suggested that it might be in part due to Davis' status rather than just your charming personality.

[TEPaul]

"and I suggested that it might be in part due to Davis' status rather than just your charming personality."

Nope, not even in part. It's pretty much entirely due to Paul's charming personality.

[paul cowley]

 Tom D....I'm blushing, but really I prefer to think it is because we are a very hands on and engaged team from the very beginning ....we're plainspoken and practical, we don't make unrealistic promises or hype our ability [something that can create problems for some in this industry]...we try to spend a clients dollar as if it was our own and I like to think that in most cases our end product is more than the sum of the site and budjet......oh , and we are also very creative, bathe daily, have well behaved, intelligent children and pretty blonde wives.

[ChasLawler]

I just got out of a meeting with Andy and Glenn (my associates) where we were discussing a really cool opportunity for a somewhat unique green at a club we are renovating.  there was alot of energy and excitement in the discussion until we remembered the client.  It was like dumping cold water on us.  

We came to the realization that this particular client would never undersatnd or appreciate this green for what it was, only criticize it for being different.  Now, if I really want to build this green, I will debate, rationalize, demonstrate and sell every reason why this green should be on their golf course.  But they'll grind my edges down to the bone challenging my "authority", sanity, judgement, etc. using terms like "integrity" of the course, "traditional design", "not like the other holes", sound familiar.


Um...why shouldn't a green committee ask those questions when you propose a unique green that may be out of character with the rest of the course?



As Tom said, they'll question every answer and answer every question.  You had better be able to lead because they will challenge everything.  And, in most cases, it's the lower end clients who expect more for less.  They want more input, even though they know you have worked at far more prestigous places, and they want more of your time because they think you are too expensive anyway.  Funny how that works.  


Who cares if you have worked at "far more prestigious places"? You took the job - shouldn't all your clients get the same quality of service?

[JWL]

Tom
You said that Nicklaus Design associates have been really surprised at the input of Mr. Pascucci at Sebonack.
Since I am one of the ND associates, please allow me to clarify that I am not the least bit surprised.  I have known Michael for a while and appreciate his love and passion for the game.    He deserves something special and I, like you, believe he is getting it.
Also, most of the project owners that I have worked with at ND over the years have had significant input and influence in the design process and finished project.   I believe you stated the opposite, which I wanted to merely clarify for the readers of this thread.

[Mike_Young]

I think all of us have seen the different scenarios that  Paul, Jeff, Tom, Lester and others have mentioned above.
But Paul, I do think there is something to what TD was saying regarding the relationship with Player/architects.
 Presently we have one client that had a course designed by one of the very big signatures.  Whenever he disagrees with us , he reverts back to "what the sig would have done" and I have found if I want a tree down or a bunker in a particular spot and he doesn't ...then all it takes is having Charlie tell him this is what he should do and it gets done.  So, Paul, don't take me wrongly on this.....I think it can work in your favor if managed correctly....it's just human nature....