Tournament Conditions

[Donnie Beck]

How much does your course change during tournament conditions. I have listened to my friend Tom Paul speak about optimal greens speeds for years, but it wasn’t until this weekend while preparing for a member guest tournament I really noticed how much the greens came alive at faster speeds. I was out playing Thursday night while my guys were mowing greens and couldn’t believe how much more break there was on my putts. It was like I was playing a different set of greens. It is amazing how much of a difference an extra foot of speed made. I was wondering how much differently your courses play under tournament conditions.

[wsmorrison]

Donnie,

Although I don't like to play in the member-member or member-guest tournaments at Rolling Green, I do like to check out the conditions and playability changes.  It seems that my course, like others I have encountered likes to push the green speeds and pin positions to their limit and like the USGA they sometimes go over the limit.

What I think the folks that set up the tournaments either forget or like to flaunt (hard to say) is that increasing the green speeds reduces the number of pin positions.  There are a few benchmark greens (1, back right of 3, 4, 8, 9 and 13) where the ball will come back to you at the greenspeeds they tend to use.  The last Flynn Cup (a local 9 course tournament, not the National Flynn Invitational which is a core group of clubs and a rotation of other national clubs) had some pin positions combined with green speeds that was unworkable.

I think it is a great thing to move green speeds for different events.  It is, as you say Donnie, like putting on a different set of greens.  But also, if the greens are firm to approache shots in addition to fast, it is like playing a different course because the ideal approache angles may vary as well.  I firmly believe that green speeds dictate appropriate pin positions.

Tom Paul has been studying different green speeds and the exponential effect a foot or so might have above a certain course specific speed.  Certainly a difference between 8 and 9 is not the same as 10 and 11 on certain pin locations with slope.

[Craig Sweet]

Donnie, we host the Montana Open every year and the one thing I notice is the daily fairway mowing makes a big difference in apperience and how the fairways play.

The greens get rolled twice during the event...once on Thursday morning and again on Saturday morning. (if I recall) Each day, beginning on Wednesday, they get doubled mowed and the speed jumps from our normal 9.5-10.5 to 10.5-11.2ish....

I know for sure that our average golfer notices a big difference in green speed when they are putting a foot to 18" faster...and they have trouble adjusting. If you asked them I bet they would say the greens are running 12 or faster...it would be nice to give them faster and smooth greens everyday...

But here's the problem...on a daily basis we could not keep the speeds up there because we see over 50,000 rounds. The greens become very bumpy...a bumpy green running 11 would be ugly bad...rolling every day is not an option for us...so we spend most of the summer rolling once a week, and putting on bumpy 9.5-10 greens...

[Donnie Beck]

It was fun while it lasted. We have had an extremely dry summer, but got our 1st heavy rain in over a month yesterday. The course is still fast tee to green but lost some of its firmness due to the rain. The course was playing like it was built on brick. Balls in the fairways were bouncing 7-8 feet in the air when they hit and gaining 75-100 yds of roll compared to balls that trickled into the roughs. I had a blast playing different shots Thursday night. I didn’t come in off the course till almost 10pm (about an hr after dark).  It was interesting having the option of playing 4-5 different clubs from only 130 out, but was really amazed me was how much the balls feed of the slopes of the greens and the amount of break on the putts. Anyway the wind it up this morning so hopefully it won’t be too much longer until it dries back out.

[TEPaul]

Donnie:

Interesting. Glad to hear that observation.

I think that kind of realization is very exciting and managed well it can stay that way. Only downside is so many problems can occur so quickly just over that exciting speed differential that can make a course's greens as fun and interesting as you just observed and experienced. The problems just over that differential are both with playabliity as well as course maintenance (both set-up and agronomically).

To me this is a large part of the ideal maintenance meld---eg finding that PARTICULAR speed differential for your PARTICULAR course. And obviously that is going to be different from course to course for a lot of obvious reasons (that so ironically have never before been all that obvious for some set of odd reasons ).

It's looking to me suspiciously like an almost ideal speed differential may be around 9.5 to 10.5.

The reason I mention that speed differential is many-fold. Firstly, in play, 9.5 to 10.5 is a whole lot faster than most all golfers think it is. If you ran an actual 10.5 most all your golfers would think it was 12 or 13.

In my mind, and from about three years now of actually experimenting with this on a whole slew of golf courses, once you get into that 9.5 to 10.5, as you just observed, raw physics takes over and an exponential effect on ball roll takes over big-time. That creates an effect where the architecture (slope and contour of even the imperceptible and nuancy kind) just begins to really pop. Some of us call that "turning the lights up".

With a speed differential of about 9.5 to 10.5 the lights go up bigtime on maybe 1% to 3% grades. Grades higher than that can get a bit problematic though since once a ball reaches them down grade it builds up too much speed to stay in areas golfers want it to eventually.

In my opinion, once speeds get over an actual 11 playability even on 2% or 3% can get sort of crazy. The effect in play is what I call "ball creep" and it is just amazing over 11 even on those grades. The reason "ball creep" kicks in so dramatically at that speed is, in my opinion, that's the point where lack of friction kicks in bigtime.

But it is amazing how this differential that may be around 9.5 to 10.5 greens can go so quickly from mundane to super exciting to crazy. With the light analogy it's that they go from sort of dark (around 9) to highlight (around 9.5 to 10.5) to way too blinding (just over 11).

It's sort of too bad those parameters are so narrow but they are. It's physics in the end and we sure can't change that.

[Craig Sweet]

tom...good points about "turning the lights up"...here's another wrinkle...on Thursday we rolled the greens and mowed them in the morning...after work (1:30pm) I went out to play 9 holes...the temp was now in the low 90's, no humidity, and a good breeze was blowing...my first putt was slightly downhill...about 10ft...I ran it 12ft past the hole!  I'm sure the golfers that got out in the morning had nice greens, a tad faster than normal...maybe even "highlight" speed, but certainly not "blinding"...we on the other hand had to wear dark glasses while putting!

[Peter Galea]

It's physics in the end and we sure can't change that.

Gravity - It's the Law!



btw, thanks for the "turn up the lights" analogy. I like it.

[Craig Sweet]

Gravity...it hasn't let me down yet!

I have a friend who is fond of saying he would like to live in Theory....because everything works in Theory.

[Stuart Hallett]

Tom,

I like the term "ball creep".

The extra half a turn, after the ball appeared to have stopped is certainly a good indication of tournament speed on my course. Speeds need to be in excess of 11 feet for this sliding effect, or "ball creep" to occur when measuring a flat area.

I agree that ideal speeds are site specific and I'd also say that growth habits of different grasses, and of course, mowing directions influence greatly the balls momentum. Stoloniferous grasses seem to have more "ball creep".

Has anyone mowed or rolled an entire green in the same direction to make downhill slopes even quicker ? Granted, it may be time consuming, but this must be a better alternative to excessively low cutting heights.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Donnie,
  We just had the AJGA Tournament of Champions here this week at Long Cove and the one thing that the kids all said was how difficult the greens were to read, not because of grain, but because of the amount that the ball actually broke. We mowed greens 33 times in an 11 day spand, rolling every morning and some nights and had a consistant 11.5 on the meter. We usually have our Tifeagle running about 10 for the members and when they played today, the same comment rang true-and we have a lot our contour on our greens. It was fun seeing some of the best junior golfers struggle over 3 foot putts!!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[TEPaul]

Donnie Beck said:

"The course was playing like it was built on brick. Balls in the fairways were bouncing 7-8 feet in the air when they hit and gaining 75-100 yds of roll".

YAHOO! GIDDYUP! RIDE 'EM COWBOY!

Jeeesus I love to hear that stuff. YOU DA MAN. DONNIE!

7-8 feet in the air when they hit the ground and 75 to 100 yards of rollout!!!

My super asked me a couple of times; "How firm is too firm, and how much bounce and roll-out is too much?

I said, Mike, it's NEVER TOO MUCH!

Donnie, why don't you come on down here one of these days and you and me will go out in the dead of night like a couple of Recon Marines and sabotage Gulph Mills's fairway irrigation system. And when we've done that, we'll tear out of Philly in my MINI COOPER S and zip up to Fishers Island and go fishing so no one will ever suspect us.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donnie,

I think you have to determine the speeds that optimize the playability of your golf course.

There's a point at which the course transitions from sporty and challenging to goofy, and you have to determine that threshold, understanding that Mother Nature may or may not co-operate with your plans.

Severe contouring was meant to make the greens come alive at slower speeds.  Absent severe contouring, you have to determine what makes the playing surfaces come alive at FI.

Have fun in your pursuit

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Donnie has to determine the speed that optimizes the playability of his golf course??

What do you think he said in the initial post on this thread? He knows what the speed is that optimizes the playability of his golf course. What do you think he saw last Thursday when he was out playing, and why do you think he started this thread? Did you notice in his initial thread that he asked your opinion on how to optimize the playability of his golf course?

Of course what that speed actually is that optimizes the playability of FI is not for people like you to know. It's only for people like Donnie and me to know. The actual stimpmeter reading that optimizes the playability of FI will only be known by Donnie and me for the rest of time. No one will pry it out of either of us. If anyone even tries to ask either of us they will find the both of us about two miles out in the Sound fishing in a little boat in about five minutes flat.

Well, on second thought, you could pry it out of me but it will cost you a frightening amount of money to do so. You may be rich but I doubt you're that rich.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You will also never know how natural (or not) the bunkers are at Sand Hills. This also is not for people like you to know. This kind of thing is only for people like you to guess about for the rest of time. Just as in the movie "The Sting" whose denoument was "Hold the con" even after the con-artists are packed and out of town, the bunkers of Sand Hills will forever "hold their mystery" to people like you.

I have called Dick Youngscap and told him to place the pre-construction photographs (which I have seen) in a safe from which their extraction will be highly unlikely. Dick also said he would program that safe so no one from North Jersey could ever open it. If any North Jerseyite ever tries to open that safe Dick says the safe will immediately heat up to about 150 degrees and a small automated voice from within it will say---"fugetaboutit"

[Patrick_Mucci]

What do you think he said in the initial post on this thread?

HE KNOWS what the speed is that optimizes the playability of his golf course. [/color]

What do you think he saw last Thursday when he was out playing, and why do you think he started this thread?

Did you notice in his initial thread that HE ASKED your opinion on HOW to optimize the playability of his golf course?[/color]

TEPaul,

Do you see the CONTRADICTION in your post as highlighted in Blue and Red ?

If you could read, and better yet, if you could read with just a bit of comprehension, you would have seen that Donnie said that it wasn't UNTIL THIS WEEKEND that he discovered the impact that speeded up playing surfaces had on the playability of his golf course.

That means that he's just made that discovery and now seeks to optimize those conditions.

He and he alone must determine and maintain them.

It's amazing, two weeks away from my personal tutelage and tutorage you forget everything I've taught you.  It's time for a refresher course.  Perhaps I can have the flight attendent who mistook you for Bill Coore assist you with your homework.[/color]

Of course what that speed actually is that optimizes the playability of FI is not for people like you to know. It's only for people like Donnie and me to know. The actual stimpmeter reading that optimizes the playability of FI will only be known by Donnie and me for the rest of time. No one will pry it out of either of us. If anyone even tries to ask either of us they will find the both of us about two miles out in the Sound fishing in a little boat in about five minutes flat.
I'm not interested in the details, I just want to experience the enjoyment of the optimized playability.

Playability, I might add, that you can't experience riding around in the back of a pickup truck screaming at porcupines, deer and any golfers you see.[/color]

Well, on second thought, you could pry it out of me but it will cost you a frightening amount of money to do so. You may be rich but I doubt you're that rich.

I wouldn't have to use my powers of persuasion, I'd send my emissary, a certain, special flight attendent and you'd spill the beans faster than old Tom could cook a rare burger on the porch.[/color]

[Phil_the_Author]

Donnie,

Where Pat said that "speeds that optimize the playability of your golf course" are important but can be very misunderstood to mean how fast can we get then before the windmills come out?

Just because greens can get very fast doesn't mean that they should. For example, look at Winged Foot. When they get above 10 - 10.5 they now create whole areas of greens that can not be used for pin locations. Take #10. Any ball that gets to the back center of the green will roll back down to the front if the green speed is at 11. If it is kept at 10, the devilish locations behind the left bunker can be used (and others as well) thus bringing into play all potential risk/rewards that were designed into the hole, especially where the tournament is stretched out over 2, 3 or 4 days.

I suggest that one find the pin locations that they want to use and THEN plan the speeds that will allow for them at their optimum challenge. Backward to the process that usually takes place, I know, but I think it is surprisingly effective.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I see you're struggling to understand the written word again.

Donnie asked anyone who reads his thread how much differently their course plays from tournament conditon to other than that. He didn't ask anyone to tell him how differently his course plays---he pretty much explained that himself.

As you can see in his second sentence on the subject of the difference of the playability of an optimum green speed on particular golf courses Donnie says he's been influenced by or made aware of the significance of this fact by the extraordinariy perspicacity of one TEPaul.

Just suck it up and live with it Pat, you'll have to come to grips with that fact one of these days if you ever want to be any good at golf course architecture and how specific and detailed maintenance practices as delineated by the laser-sharp mind of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's TEPaul optimizes it all.

[TEPaul]

"I suggest that one find the pin locations that they want to use and THEN plan the speeds that will allow for them at their optimum challenge. Backward to the process that usually takes place, I know, but I think it is surprisingly effective."

Phil:

That's not backward at all and it's not new. It's been around for quite some time. It was even labeled on here 5-6 years ago as the "Steve Curry Green Speed Barometer".

One can even do it, as Steve Curry does, without the use of a stimpmeter at all. All you have to do is identify that part of a green that you want to keep as playable or pinnable that goes over the top first on the golf course. It can be basically all playability driven. Once you find and identify that spot and test its playabiltiy then the optimum or reasonable maximum green speed for the golf course falls into line.

One of the benefits to doing it that way is that these days mow heights in the range that generally produces 9-11 correlate to over-all speed consistency throughout a course's greens better than they ever have.

[ForkaB]

Donnie

Just finished my club's 36-hole one day open, and the course was "lit up" very nicely.  Much firmer and faster than usual (Mother Nature had a big hand with that!).  Some very good players, but the best score in the morning was 2 over and 1 over in the afternoon.  Pins were tough but not impossible.  Critical was leaving your shot to the green below the hole, and getting your drive in the area wher that was easiest to do.  Lots of long bombers out there who were scaring the green with their tee shots, but getting shortsided and coming away with bogeys.  Lots of balls landing short of greens and bounding through but others (hit with proper spin) staying on.

Most members would raise holy hell if the course was set up like this all summer..  Nice that we masochists get a chance to see it in all its glory at least once a year.

Now I've got another Open and another one of my courses in early August, and I think that will be lit up then too  Can't wait!

PS--As the course I played today is in the same micro-climate as St. Amdrews, I think Mother Nature is preparing some fun for the big boys next week......

[James Bennett]

Donnie Beck said:

"The course was playing like it was built on brick. Balls in the fairways were bouncing 7-8 feet in the air when they hit and gaining 75-100 yds of roll".

YAHOO! GIDDYUP! RIDE 'EM COWBOY!

Jeeesus I love to hear that stuff. YOU DA MAN. DONNIE!

7-8 feet in the air when they hit the ground and 75 to 100 yards of rollout!!!

My super asked me a couple of times; "How firm is too firm, and how much bounce and roll-out is too much?

I said, Mike, it's NEVER TOO MUCH!

Donnie, why don't you come on down here one of these days and you and me will go out in the dead of night like a couple of Recon Marines and sabotage Gulph Mills's fairway irrigation system. And when we've done that, we'll tear out of Philly in my MINI COOPER S and zip up to Fishers Island and go fishing so no one will ever suspect us.

We had minimal rain from mid-February through to mid-June, following our normal dry (fortnightly rain) summer.  Autumn normally rains around mid-April, certainly by mid-June.  We elected to reduce the irrigation from mid-February, expecting rain, to firm the fairways before winter.

Well, 'giddye up' was probably a good description, because the ball certainly did.  Pretty tricky on a course with doglegs.  The challenge was certainly up there, with some people getting near the green with drives (the course must be too easy ) whilst others struggled when they were short-sided (the course is too hard ).  And, of course, any aggresive play was likely to run out of fairway, into a bad lie .

The first time it happens (it wasn't for a tournament, it was happenstance), the membership has a bit of a shock.  I look forward to seeing how St Andrews plays.  It might illustrate to some that 'firm and fast' fairways can provide an alternate challenge as part of the ever-changing tapestry of golf we see in the yearly cycle of seasons.