Longmeadow CC - photos and writeup

[TEPaul]

"I'm not sure why you have the impression I am interested in you taking me seriously or not or approving of my views or not. If that were my goal, I'd immediately run out and buy a pair of rose colored glasses."

Whoa! I think Mrs Grundy might ask you to stay after English class to parse that one! But I think I get the gist! You definitely don't need to run out and buy rose colored glasses, in my opinion---I sure don't think you need them. What you really do need, though, is to have the Nicklaus Co. call you for your advice on the OSU Scarlett course and for you to get involved in a real restoration! I think you'd get a good education in architecture and reality.

But, I can assure you I don't have the impression you're interested in me taking you seriously. I'm still trying to figure out who you are interested in taking you seriously.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Restoration wasn't exactly what I had in mind.

I'm interested in connecting with those who have an honest, deep felt appreciation for golf architecture.

[Michael Moore]

I'm surprised that Michael highlights the 14th:  I thought it was one of the lesser holes.

I was clearly responding to Mr. Pazin's request for more information about the shorter holes at Longmeadow.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Restoration wasn't exactly what I had in mind."

Tom:

I realize that--you've made it clear lately that preservation is what you have in mind. I doubt that there's hardly anyone on here who doesn't share that goal. The courses and architecture you've outlined as even worthy of preservation is fairly small and limited and again, I can't imagine anyone on here, certainly including me who doesn't share that goal.

However, there are numerous other courses and other architecture out there that I certainly feel benefits from restoration. Frankly, I can hardly think of a course in America who's architecture has survived perfectly preserved. And so in almost all cases, I believe restoration is in order, and that is something that's taking place en masse these days and I, for one, am very glad for it. You on the other hand, seem to have a problem with this and I suppose that's where our directions most definitely part.

You said;

"I'm interested in connecting with those who have an honest, deep felt appreciation for golf architecture."

So am I, and if what you're saying to me here implies you think I have some kind of dishonest or shallowly felt appreciation for gollf architecture, I'd simply tell you there certainly are a ton of people out there you should worry a great deal more about on that score than someone like me!

[George Pazin]

I'd say Mr. Pazin is my dad, but he's Dr. Pazin. (So's my brother - I'm the black sheep.)

Is 13 uphill as well as long, or is it deceptive from the angle?

P.S. to Tom P -

I don't think that aside was directed at you - I read it as connected to your advice to Tom M.

[TEPaul]

"P.S. to Tom P -
I don't think that aside was directed at you - I read it as connected to your advice to Tom M."

George:

Perhaps, I couldn't say, but I get the distinct feeling that Tom M. isn't the slightest bit interested in any advice I might give.  

He seems exclusively interested in the preservation of architecture of a limited list of courses, and of course so am I but I'm also very interested in the restoration of a good deal of other architecture and courses and Tom MacWood has been contending lately that's not something he is interested in---he seems to think it may be architectural destruction in disguise. Some perhaps may be off the mark but I believe we should all keep working towards good archtectural restoration. Nothing interests me more.

[Tom Bagley]

I have enjoyed the opportunity to play Longmeadow many times and hope I can add to what has already been discussed:

1.  Until the Pritchard Master Plan, Longmeadow's yardage topped off at 6549 yards.  Back tees have significantly lengthened #s 3,9,11,12 and 13.

2.  The 238 yard 13th is very, very difficult at that length.  It used to play at 205 max.  It's a small, plateau green with a diagonal ridge running at somewhat of a front left to back right angle.

3.  The Pritchard Plan included the restoration of many bunkers that had been abandoned.  The bunker work is excellent.

4.  With the removal of many trees, an attempt was made to grow "fescue" in the rough areas.  The members found that the tall grass was too lush and did not have the sparse charateristics of seaside fescue.  As a result, many of these areas became an impenetrable mess.  Much of this "native grass" has since been mowed back.

5.  Several of the greens are not Ross originals.  The club has a Ross drawing of the layout, but not the "hole cards" that show the greens in detail.  I believe holes 2, 11 and 12 (there may be more) are not originals.  The Pritchard Plan called for restoring/rebuilding some of these greens.

6.  The best hole on the course in usually considered to be #8, a dog-leg left par-four of 447 yards.  It has a wooded ravine to the left, and an impressive swale that cuts through the fairway at about the 300 yard mark.  The green is somewhat of a reverse Road Hole green angled left to right.

7.  The best thing about Longmeadow is the magnificent property:  one or two significant hills, but mostly gently rolling old farmland with tremendous natural undulations.

8.  The par-three "9th" hole as discussed above is indeed the 16th hole.  To the best of my recollection the routing has never been changed.  The Ross book is in error.



Longmeadow is an excellent course that is definitely worth a visit.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I liked the 2nd green, I hope they keep the front to back slope.  I did think that the 12th green was not quite as good as the hole merited,  but what a hole anyway!

I'd like to see that ravine on 2nd and 8th exposed more.  Chop or thin the trees.  The 8th is one of the best holes I've ever seen, like something from Hirono.

PS

Is the 7th original?

[Tom Bagley]

I like the 2nd green as well.  Another green that may not be an original is #6, the par-four over water.  The green is somewhat of a flat shelf cut into a hillside.  I've been told that it was re-done at some point.

I don't know about #7, although I agree that the slope between the lower level and upper level does not look very "Ross-like."

Hole #8 is indeed great.  The Massachusetts Golf Association picked it as one of the best holes in the state a few years ago.

[TEPaul]

"TE
The caption in GOLF HAS NEVER FAILED ME is "These pot bunkers at the ninth at Longmeadow CC, Springfield, MA, have sand pulled to the top."
These new bunkers look like your prototypical Ross bunker...which are quite popular now days. I don't see whole lot of irregularizing in their future."

Tom MacWood;

Obviously you don't think the Prichard restored bunkers today and the Ross bunkers in the photo of Longmeadow's #9 in Ross's book look much alike. Why is that? Have you seen a photo of the Longmeadow hole in Ross's book after the bunker restoration by Prichard? And you say you don't see a whole lot of irregularizing of those restored bunkers in their future? Would you mind telling us what you're basing that on?

You probably didn't see any irregularizing in the future of Merion's bunkers either did you?

[Paul_Turner]

I haven't seen any old pics of Longmeadow.  The restored bunkers look very similar to those at Aronimink.  Not a criticism, just an observation for discussion.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Surprised that no one mentioned that Longmeadow will host the 2005 U.S. Junior Amateur next year.  How will little David Chung do here?

[TEPaul]

Paul:

The Prichard restored bunkering at Longmeadow does look similar to the Prichard restored bunkering at Aronimink (that was done off Ross original field drawings). The bunkering on both those courses also looks very similar to the redone bunkering at GMGC by Gil Hanse, a Ross look that GMGC has never previously had.

The bunkering on all three courses looks very much like Ross's own well known grassed down face bunkering to me, and all three projects seem to have been very well received.

But perhaps all three courses should have done a combination of the grassed down bunker look as well as the Ross "scooped out pits", "sunken pits with raised faces" "pot bunkers", mound and pot combinations", and "diagonal bunkers" just to prove to that purist from Ohio who's never seen any of those courses, and, seemingly couldn't care less what any of the memberships of those courses think of their own course, that all three clubs really have read Donald Ross's book about his different bunkering types and styles and we all really are aware that the Ross grassed down faced bunker is not the only type and style Donald Ross ever did!  

[Tom Bagley]

Two other Ross greensites that are similar to the "9th" at Longmeadow are the 12th at Salem (a par three) and the 18th at Worcester (a short par four).  I believe there is a period photo of Worcester's 18th in the Ross book.  Those pot bunkers differ from Longmeadow's in that they are not as irregular in shape.  The Worcester bunkers appear to be more flat-bottomed;  the bunker faces have a more manufactured look to them.

[Michael Moore]

Second green is by Geoffrey Cornish. Do not know the context.

Thanks for all the responses, this is my most popular thread since "lip-out physics", to which I never got a satisfactory answer.

[TEPaul]

"this is my most popular thread since "lip-out physics", to which I never got a satisfactory answer."

Michael:

Not sure I understand what "lip-out physics" is. Was that something about why Pat Mucci's mouth works so fast and loose? If so, I doubt there ever will be a satisfactory answer. Some things in this world are probably just destined to be eternal enigmas!

[Brent Hutto]

Bumping a thread from last year...

A couple young men I know will be playing at the Junior Am this year at Longmeadow. What a wonderful writeup from Mr. Moore. I wish I'd found it before they left town yesterday.

I tell you, after seeing the photos I may have to finagle a way to Massachusets if one or both of them advance to the matchplay. What a great course. I would just *love* to see some of these fearless juniors tangle with it for a few days.

[John_Conley]

Longmeadow is a great golf course.  One solid par four after another.  Great use of the terrain, excellent green complexes.  Rarely does it get mentioned when Massachusetts golf is brought up, I suspect more because of its location than its merits in relation to the Boston area courses.

Anyone who can see the Junior on TV should if they are interest in the course.

[michael j fay]

The US Junior Am will be there this year.

It will be televised by The Golf Channel.

Longmeadow was a very solid restoration and face-lift that is the product of the work of the traditional minded membership, leadership of Roberta Bolduc who was the President of Longmeadow at the time of the passage of the Restoration and of course the artistry of Ron Prichard.

There were quite a number of trees removed and cut back. They could well continue that program in the future. The course is on a small property that is bisected by a town road. Tree intrusion is felt immediately when it gets out of hand. I endorse the removal of the remaining pines and willows. There is the need to retain the barrier trees between the road and the sixth and ninth fairways.

The 13th, which has been lengthened to 225+ yards is extremely difficult, almost unfairly so. The two short three pars have marvelous devilish greens and difficult close bunkering.

Longmeadow is the type of course that can bite your butt on any hole. It is unquestionably one of the longest 6,700 tracts, anywhere. Par is 35-35=70 with two fives and four threes.

Thanks for the photos and report.

[Brad Klein]

As the GCA regular whose house is closest to Longmeadow (16 miles), let me clear up just a few things and add to Mike Fay's comments.

TEP, please note that the photo on p. 83 of "Golf Has Never Failed Me" is mislabeled. It says the 9th hole but it's actually the short par-3 16th and it's been very much restored.

One other myth. I really doubt Ross spent more than a very brief moment at Longmeadow. It's a wonderful course with great character, but it's one of those that Cornish calls "more Ross than Ross," meaning that all oft he field work and site supervision was done by Ross' truted associate, Walter Hatch, who lived nearby and was within an easy commute of his home in North Amherst, mass. Also, the routing plan in the clubhouse bears Hatch's handiwork, not that of the typical Ross/Walter Irving Johnson style. None of which detracts for a second from the layout.

Seconding Fay, let's credit wise internal leadership for recognizing their gem and allowing Prichard thee latitude to undo years of random tree planting and some bad renovation work by Cornish. Also, kudos go to LCC's superintendent Richard Derby. By the way, as I recall, Longmeadow was on the Golf Digest top-100 list in the 1960s.