GCA Ryder Cup 2006, Hoylake

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Yes, they are going to start at 17, so finishing at the 16th.  I suppose the idea is that you can get bigger grandstands round the green by building them on the practice ground  (Practice will take place, I believe, over the road of Hoylake Municipal), and possibly they can move the tee on the current 1st back to bring the corner of the OOB dog-leg into play for these mighty hitters.  I wonder, had they known this, if they would have rebuilt the 17th - what a nerve jangler it would have been as a 1st with its green right up against the chain-mail fence, and on which it has not been unknown for players to putt out of bounds.

The 1st (which will be the 3rd) is very uncompromising, with the OOB on the right, the fairway hugging it as it curves to the right towards the green.  On the left the OOB is the clubhouse and its surroundings and the indignity of having to ask the Secretary, 'Please may I have my ball back?' is unthinkable.  For an average player like me, into the wind (as it often is) it is a terrifying start.  You may well not clear the corner of the dog-leg, in which case the second shot will have to carry pretty well all the way to the green over the OOB.  Long hitters will want to cut the corner but it is then a question of knowing exactly how much to bite off and ensuring that you don't overshoot the fairway if you play too straight.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I've not played the new 17th, so I can't comment on how that will play as an opener.  As to carrying the corner of the dog-leg, it all depends on the wind.  It was 244 yards to the angle of the dog-leg and 159 yards to the green from there, so the smart play would be to hit an iron 250 yards straight and still only leave about 165 to the middle of the green.  But the tee is 40 yards long, and I remember watching Liverpool University players in winter playing from near the front of the tee (200 yards to the corner) and all tried to clear it.  Some did, some didn't.  One unfortunate hit a lovely drive into perfect position over the corner only to dump his approach shot a few yards right of the green and, of course, out of bounds.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Here's the 1st at R Liverpool.

[Paul_Turner]

I wonder if they would have gone to all that trouble of changing the famous Royal Hole (17th) with that current sequence of holes?  No need for a grandstand if it's now the 1st!  I haven't played the new 17th either and the green complex looks interesting from pics.  But the new green does not look to have the tactical interest of the old;  Colt, Mackenzie and Simpson will be turning.

[Philip Gawith]

Sean - I'm not sure whether there are plans to change 14 and 16 to par 4's. I suspect not - I think I would have heard about it.

I share your views about trying to cut the corner on the first hole. 244 yards does not do justice to the shot you are faced when you are teeing off into the prevailing wind with OB preying on your mind. It will be very interesting to see what the pro's try. If it is still, the hole will be neutered, but with the wind - game on!

Mark - the new 17th is very long into the wind. It might not have the particular OB terrors of the older version, but it will definitely be one of the hardest holes on the course. Shorter hitters will definitely need to hit a wood for their second, and might still struggle to get up.

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

But no OB threat which made the old hole.

[Paul_Turner]

Sean,  

I think Hoylake has be neutered compared to what it was, the 7th was changed too with OB hard against the left side of the green.  Which was even scarier than the 17th at TPC and also added balance to the OB threat for the whole course since it's left side.

Hoylake without OB is almost like The Old Course or Lytham without pot bunkers or say PVGC without waste areas. It's the defining feature of the course that makes it unique...being slowly eroded.  

16th is a great finisher.  But in my mind the 1st has to be the opener.

Down with standardisation!

[Keith Durrant]

Well I guess you either love the 1st or you hate it. For me it was one of the most thrilling starts to a round. It grabs you and says: I dare you to try to hit a driver out of the middle, with your opening tee shot. As the third, already warmed up, it wont have quite the same effect.

Laying up or playing left and long is no easy route to a par, as you could be faced with a mid iron into the wind with OOB biting all down the right.

It's possible to do a Thomas Bjorn number on this hole...

In terms of the re-routing, i thought 18 was one of the weakest holes on the course, so it may still be best to start on 17. The new contour on the 17th and 18th greens were out of character with the other greens, in my opinion, almost as if they were being made tricky in order to compensate for the lack of length on the two holes.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I think this is how they are both now configured.

[Philip Gawith]

I recall that Ran in some magazine article 12-18 months ago listed some of the changes at Hoylake (I think he singled out the changes to 7 and 17) as being in his top ten list of acts of architectural sacrilege.

I'm pleased that they do not seem to have totally diminished his enthusiasm for the course.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I very much doubt if Royal Liverpool would have been awarded the Open if the old 7th had been kept - too capricious.

[Peter_Herreid]

Philip, Ran et al.--

Please put me down as one who would like to be kept abreast of planning for this possible event--Timing might be perfect.

Thanks!
Peter

[Philip Gawith]

Peter - any chance you might be able to bring Pee-Wee with you? I would pay for your trip!

[Peter_Herreid]

Philip--

Alas, I fear it would be unwise to commit "PeeWee" to an event 15 months away.  His concerns are more short-term, I suspect.

However, perhaps one of his local "cousins" could hop in and conver for him

Peter

[Tony_Muldoon]

Talking to my brother Richard he asked why I hadn't already put our names forward.  He says if I can improve my game he'll let me play - so it looks like another player and his caddy will be there.


Early oct best - a bit of space between Ryder cup(fingers crossed) and half term.

[Philip Gawith]

Tony - what are the Ryder Cup and half-term dates?

[Tony_Muldoon]

The 'other' Ryder cup is on at the K club from 21st to 24th September 2006.  For those who missed my previous post, on line applications for the ballot are still open until the 18th of this month - see the post a couple of pages back for the link.

Don't have exact dates for half term it varies depending on which school, but it's usually about a month after the above dates, around my daughter's birthday on the 28th.

[Andy Levett]

Hoylake is one of 18 UK gems featured in poet Patric Dickinson’s superb A Round Of Golf Courses. It’s out of print so here, for review purposes   is the Hoylake ‘hole’. (Conclusion of the review: well worthy of a reprint)