The New Trend in Private Golf Clubs?

[Tim_Weiman]

Cabell,

I have a somewhat different view on this topic, in part due to my personal situation.

Last year I moved to Nashville which is kind of a wasteland when it comes to golf; the reason for re-locating was starting a new job.

As a result, I don't see myself playing much golf - either in Nashville or elsewhere.

But, my passion for golf architecture hasn't diminished and I do like the idea of a club......a place where you have friends that you see on some recurring basis.

Thus, a couple trips a year to Ballybunion, where I enjoy many of the members and employees is really appealing to me.It is something I'm happy to spend a few thousand dollars a year on.

What I'd love is to have something similiar here in the States. This is a place I'd visit maybe once or twice a year......a place with great architecture and friends I could develop.

For this I can't afford $100 K or $4-5 K dues per year, but something like my costs of membership and visitation to Ballybunion would be very appealing. For this I'd happily live with the restriction of a limited number of visits per year.....say 2-3 max.

One might say such a thing kind of exists.....at say a Bandon Resort, but I really do like the idea of a club.....even if I only visit infrequently. Take a place like Stonewall, for instance. I really enjoy the golf courses - especially the new course, but what I love is the club itself. So, I would dearly love to visit once a year......but no kind of "national" membership exists and I can't afford what the normal membership costs.

That's my angle on your question........more national memberships at great golf courses.

[Brian_Sleeman]

36 holes, 18 of which are new and quite special
650 members - walking on is not a problem.
Dues are under a grand.
Initiation is under a grand.
National membership rate in the low three-figures.
Outside outings on the old course keep dues where they are.
Most staff know all the members, though most members only know 30% of each other.

[Brian Cenci]

Brian,
      Marquette Golf Club, Greywalls = Greatest Membership Value in Country.

Glad I joined earlier this year before you guys hike the price!!!

-Brian

[Michael Plunkett]

I do not belong to a club. I do play many up-scale courses. What I'm tired of is the "Beta Testing" of golf courses- Fazio courses it seems- for a few years than get an announcement of going 'private.'  

Pine Hill is an example. There are several in the south jersery/philadelphia area and it is growing.

BTW: played the course last week, greens were bumpy but still a lovely course with some great shot values. But waiting for a Guiness in the bar after the round- left after 20 mins- it never came. Where's the ranger??

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Cabell

As stated Hidden Creek is the prime example. Both the full and national memberships are well under 100K and are refundable non-equity deposits,not the traditional non refundable initiation fees at member owned clubs.

The new Pradera(Engh) in Colorado is also well under 100K. I'll be there in a few weeks and report then. Preliminary reports are good.

The national memberships to be offered at Ballyneal, Prairie Club and Dismal River may fit into this category as well.

Any club with Trump in the name does not.

Steve

[Scott_Burroughs]

How about French Creek?  $12,500 single, $15,250 family initiation for a terrific Gil Hanse design near a major metro area.

I think Four Streams (Smyers design near Wash. D.C. ) is also well under $100K.  (can someone confirm?  Tommy W?).

Kelly Moran's Hawk Pointe (~hour outside NYC - closer to Allentown  ) is $20K, although it still hasn't become fully private yet.

I'd guess Inniscrone is well under $100K, though I think it's still open to the public on a limited basis.

[ChasLawler]

I looked up Hidden Creek, and the initiation and dues figures there do look pretty reasonable.

Scott - French Creek sounds excellent...almost too good to be true.

From the responses so far - it appears I may be in the minority regarding the maximum number of members a US club should have.....

I agree that in a perfect world it would be great to belong to place with 300 or less members and where everyone knows your name. But the reality is that most people can't afford that luxury....

and rightly or wrongly - for significantly less money - I would think there might be a good number of folks who were willing to pass on some of the conveniences and perks of a small membership.

[Sean_A]

Cabel

One major drawback with a short membership is getting a game without arranging in advance.  The fewer the members, the less likely of being able to show up and tag on with someone.  

Ciao

Sean

[Tom_Doak]

Ballyneal memberships are $35K, about to go up to $50K.

Even Stonewall, in the northeast corridor and with TWO 18-hole courses, is well under $100,000.  Same for Lost Dunes.  And Cuscowilla too, I believe.

However, the reason for the high prices is that it's generally easier to find 150 guys willing to pay $100K, than 300 guys who will pay $50K.  It's all about the distribution of wealth in this country.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Based on the experience of a developer we're currently involved with, I agree with Tom Doak. It seems that if you're trying to raise $12 million for a project, it'd probably be easier to find two guys to invest $6 million each than 40 at $300,000 each; even in Canada.

[Jim Thompson]

Has an architecturally significant private golf course been built in that last decade with an initiation fee under $100K?

I know of one semi-private with no initiation fees, no minimums, no monthly dues, no assessments, and a family membership under $3,000.  Oh yeah and the carts are complimentary too!  Just like the coffee in the pro shop.

Cheers!

JT

[Sam Sikes]

Cabell,

What the H are you talking about.  I really dont get your argument.  Are you high?  There is no way a good club could offer a membership under 100k.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Scott,  I have been away a few days.  Just read this thread.
When opened Four Streams was 35K.  when the members bought the club wehad to anty up more.  It went to 65K and now is going to 75K.  Four Streams has about 225 members and dues in excess of 600$ a month.  Last year we lost 1,000,000$ and were assessed an additional $5K.  A marketing co. said out initiation deposit (you get it back when you move resign or die) was too low! It is going to 75K.  Still way too much!!  
It is odd that a study said we should raise the deposit to attract new members.  I guess the thought is the higheer the price the more people expect the club to be great.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Cabell, Yes there have been many. The initiation fees are a  function of land costs and capital improvements put into the project. Tom is right from a money raising point of view. I meant at the next level when those guys are getting their money back. Cuscowilla is a great course with a membership fee well under $50,000.00. It seems many of the clubs you hear about are in California, Long Island, near a big city or in South Florida or Montana. these places all have factors which run costs up. I wonder what Sand Hills initiation fee was at first?

[Jerry Kluger]

I just played Lake Winnipesaukee CC in New Hampshire and it is a really good private club which is only a couple of years old and they have had to drop their initiation fee in order to attract some members and they still only have 150.

Four Streams is a reallly good course in the Washington, DC area which is having its problems and it will be interesting to see what happens in the end.  As I understand it the person who started the club tried to fashion it after Caves Valley with early memberships at $18,500.  He eventually bumped it up and gave the option to the members to get a refund or pay the higher initiation.  He then decided he wanted out and offered the club for sale and the members bought it although the membership at Congressional wanted to buy it.  The memberships are supposed to be equity but there are not going to be any refunds until they reach a certain membership level which they have not been able to do.  For my 2 cents worth the problem they have is that the membership is by individual and not family so your spouse or child has to be your guest or buy their own membership.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Try Northern Mich.  You could damn near buy a quality golf course for 6 figures!  

JC

[TEPaul]

"I was at one last week with a $2.5 million initation and dues of $155,000 per year.  25 members."

MikeY;

Let's see how long that club "caps" its membership at 25.  

[TEPaul]

The kind of club you want to belong to is something like the old Links club in Long Island (Macdonald). They had a membership that could never exceed 100. The members payed a little something, very little really and Mr Whitney and Mr Paley seemed to pick up the cost of the "difference". Tee times were definitely not part of the vocabulary of the club and play was so light that cops and firemen played the course a lot. Unfortunately as incredible as it may seem, eventually Mr Whitney and Mr Paley died and now I believe the Links is a housing or office development. Somehow it lasted that way for about 75 years though. The moral of the story is if you want great golf with no tee times for very little money befriend the likes of Mr Whitney and Mr Paley.  

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