Influential bunkers

[Mark_Rowlinson]

With the Open at St Andrews shortly I'm minded to wonder whether the Road Bunker might be the most influential in championship golf.

[Mike Hendren]

Mark,

In the sense that it "influences" play from the moment you exit the 16th green?  Yes.  Made all the better by its penultimate position on the golf course.  

What is surprising is its lack of influence on modern golf course architecture.   Can there be any simpler (easy for me to say!)  strategic challenge to replicate than the angled plateau'd green, the small fronting bunker and the rear hazard, whether a bunker or road or wall?

Mike

[TEPaul]

Mark:

In my opinion, the Road Hole bunker is not only the most infuential bunker in Championship golf, it's probably the most influential bunker in all of golf and architecture. If I'm not mistaken it may be the first bunker actually made by man---eg Alan Robertson in the 1850s!

[Tom_Doak]

You know, you are correct about its influence.  The version of the Road bunker we built at Cape Kidnappers (14th hole, short par 4) might very well be the nastiest bunker we've ever done.

However, the factor of what's on the other side of the green should not be underestimated, either.  Without the road, everyone would just pitch 20 feet over the bunker and go from there.  A steep drop-off behind the 14th at Kidnappers has the same effect.

[Brad Klein]

It would be interesting to develop a list of the most influential bunkers - influential in terms of design history, as well as consciousness of play during an entire round and the fear it instills. You can probably name most of them w/o naming the hole or the course

-Road Hole
-Devil's Asshole
-Redan
-Hell
-Hell's Half Acre
-Spectacles

[Paul_Turner]

In terms of aesthetics, rather then strategy/penalty, which bunkers have been the most influential?

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:

Brad:  Interesting list.  The first one I thought of which you'd left off was the Strath, and then I thought that the D.A. was basically a version of the Strath ... and that Hell's Half Acre is descended directly from Hell.  [Strangely, though, I've never heard whether George Crump spent any time at St. Andrews.  Guess I'd better read the Pine Valley history.]

The other one which comes to mind right away is the Church Pews, symbolic of Fownes' furrowed bunkers throughout Oakmont.

As for Paul's question, I think the bunker to the left of the 16th at Harbour Town was the first "waste bunker".  Somewhere I read that Pete Dye gave credit for that bunker and hole to Charles Price, the late golf writer who lived on Hilton Head.

[Brad Klein]

Tom, good adds, two more bunkers w/o holes or courses attached to them: Strath and Church Pews. I love it.

[wsmorrison]

"As for Paul's question, I think the bunker to the left of the 16th at Harbour Town was the first "waste bunker".  Somewhere I read that Pete Dye gave credit for that bunker and hole to Charles Price, the late golf writer who lived on Hilton Head."

While I'm not sure what you mean by "first waste bunker" (in terms of rules of golf?) it would seem to me that the first waste bunkers (undulating sandy waste areas without formalized bunkers) in America were at Pine Valley some of which Flynn helped build after Crump's death and emulated at:

Atlantic City CC
Boca Raton North
Boca Raton South
Brinton Lake Club (Concord CC)
Cleveland Heights CC
Floranada South
Indian Creek CC
The Kittansett Club
Normandy Shores GC
Opa-Locka GC
Norfolk CC (Sewell's Point)
Shinnecock Hills

[wsmorrison]

Principle's Nose bunkers are certainly influencial and emulated by CB, Raynor and others.  So much goes back to the Old Course!

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:  You are correct that Flynn used long sandy areas when Pete Dye was a baby.  I was very surprised to see the early photos of Atlantic City CC ... we restored some of the sandy waste between the third and fifth holes there, which had all been grassed over.  But I think that concept was dead for a long time and Mr. Dye resurrected it, for better or worse.

Brad:  I was going to say the Principal's Nose, but Wayne beat me to it (although I spelled it correctly).  It's possible that Stuart Paton's version at Woking was more influential than the original, because he prompted Mr. Darwin to write about it.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I forgot to add Denver CC to that list as well--high desert.

Those areas at Atlantic City, like many of those I mentioned were wonderful creations.  Where and by whom do you think the origin of these man-made features are?  I am drawing a blank right now--too much BBQ, no blood going to the brain.

They were lost for quite a long time.  The waste areas at Shinnecock and Atlantic City became formalized over time and that is especially true on the Florida courses.  I guess it had something to do with the agressive Bermuda grasses down there.  But at Northern courses such as Shinnecock and Atlantic City, why do you think they were grassed over?  Were they cheaper to maintain as formal bunkers?  Was it a changing aesthetic?  Too much fairness creeping in?  The need to make rulings required formalized bunker lines?

I like the bunkers you did between 3 and 5 and elsewhere around ACCC.  

I highly regard the concept of sandy waste areas if they are kept as Crump and Flynn intended them; that is rustic and natural with undulations and iffy lies.  The big, manicured and formal areas such as Harbor Town look contrived.  Did they ever look "natural?" Sadly, the waste areas at PVGC are getting more manicured and that ain't a good thing!

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne,

Most sandy areas will become grassed in naturally over a period of years, even in northern climates.  Also, golf course superintendents are not too fond of sand blowing onto their fairways and greens, or erosion in their bunkers, so they tend to want to grass over waste areas.

I think it was likely one of those causes, instead of play and rules issues, which saw the transformation.  On top of those, sandy wastes just weren't the norm back in the old days, and all courses tend to gravitate back toward accepted norms over time.  Even, sadly, Pine Valley.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am off a bit wth this post. My home course as a child was Bayou Desaid CC in Monroe La. The 4th was a par 3 of about 165 yeards that had a strath bunker in front of the green. It was the one real bunker that could change a round and almost was a sure bogie if one got in it.There is no question in my mind that while the road hole bunker may be the most influential in competitive golf, the Strath is much more important to the development of architecture in a parkland setting than the others. I still get goose bumps on 11 at TOC or #4 at BDCC thinking about it.

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Presumably waste bunkers were similar to the beach - 1st at Macrihanish, for example - or to sand dunes which had not been stabilised by planting.  I can't think of an example of the latter in Scotland off the top of my head.

[wsmorrison]

I somehow found a large natural sandy waste area over a stone wall on the right of the 1st at Nairn.  It stretches along most of the Moray Firth paralleling 5 holes.  Only really wayward drives like mind find the beach though unlike Macrihanish where the carry is over the beach.  

I think you're right about the waste bunkers resembling beaches.  But they are rare.  Crump and then Flynn really used the hazard to great effect...while they lasted.  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

As you might remember I don't believe Shinnecock understood that those "undulated sandy areas" at Shinnecock (written on Flynn's plans) were actually created by Flynn. Obviously during construction he removed a good deal of vegetation in those area and probably "undulated" those areas.

Perhaps the club never did understand that those areas took a certain amount of maintenance to hold that look. Maintenance in those areas would mean removing from time to time the natural vegetation that grew up in those areas.

Would it cost more maintenance dollars to maintain that scruffy, sandy look in those areas of Shinnecock than to just let them naturally vegetate over? Yes it would.

Unfortunately for practices like thta now Shinnecock has apparently returned to their usual "frugal" mode.

[TEPaul]

While others may not see the significance of it I believe that a Rule like 13-4b and the entire idea of it that came before it in golf significantly altered not only the way golf is played but architecture as well.

Before the prohibition in the Rules of Golf that a player could not touch the ground in a hazard with his hand or club the over-riding rule in golf was simply what it now is under Rule 13-2.

I believe that all golf anywhere on the course should be played under the direction of Rule 13-2 the way golf was played about 200 years ago. Rule 13-4b is essentially unnecessary, in my opinion.

So far as the "lie" of the ball is concerned the over-riding rule in golf should just be that a golfer may not improve his lie----period. Where he is on a golf course is inconsequentlal if that rule was followed like it once was.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom, When they played Kiawah Ocean Course in the Ryder Cup those sandy wastes were not deemed to be bunkers and grounding the club was acceptable.  Did the players ground their clubs and did it make any difference?  (Genuine question - didn't see very much of it.)

[TEPaul]

"Did the players ground their clubs and did it make any difference?  (Genuine question - didn't see very much of it.)"

Mark:

Yes they did ground their clubs and no it did not make a difference. That's my point!

[Neil Regan]

Don't forget Rorke's Drift, here seen c1905. 200 yards of waste carry ! Even today, this Par 3 is still Stoke Index 3 (Equivalent to USA handicap 3 ). Tragically, in very recent times much of the sandy waste has been lowered and grassed.

[Mike_Cirba]

The formalization and cleanup of the formerly wild and wooly waste areas and bunkering at Pine Valley is the reason I'm having serious internal debate whether Sand Hills has now replaced it as the greatest course in the world.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom MacW, I think it was, posted a picture some time ago of the 18th at Sandy Lodge, which was an uphill version of the same thing.  It's now completely grassed over.

[Mike Hendren]

Curious:  How many folks here have ever hit a ball into Hell bunker?  

Of those, how many failed to extract the ball on their first attempt?

Mike