Construction costs and the European letdown..

[Brian Phillips]

After the thread on construction costs of a golf course I decided to write a very quick post about costs of construction and a wonder on what has happened since Colt died:

In my short years as a golf course designer/architect I have met quite a few people that have influenced those and me that influenced me not so much.  My mentors include Jeff Brauer who posts on this site a lot, Jeremy Turner who is my business partner and knows more about British golf than any other man I met in my life.  Others that have I have had the honour to meet and discuss architecture are Tom Doak, Bill Coore, Ben Crenshaw, Jim Urbina, David Kidd (most of which I met at Sand Hills this year), the list goes on.  Does this mean I know anything about GCA, probably not?

One thing I do know a bit about is construction.  I will give a bit of my background.  I left home when I was 18 and bought my first house with 2 other guys who were also fed up of hiring dead money on rent payments.  I started off in insurance (same as some other architect called Dye) but joined the Royal Engineers to become a Land Surveyor, which I did in various countries including Norway.  I met my now wife in Norway and I left the Army and have settled there.  I then joined the largest Norwegian construction company Veidekke.  I have been involved in everything from building tunnels under the sea to get to the end of Europe in the North Cape to constructing a multi-storey car park under the Oslo fjord.  Most of you might be thinking – ‘get on with it Brian, what is your point’.  

Well, I started the golf course construction division in the company and they have now become one of the short listed companies for all Architects in Norway.  I left the company and I am now a partner with Jeremy in our company Turner Phillips Golf Design DA.

My point is why does construction of golf courses cost so much in America?  One of my really annoying construction costs is irrigation.  Now Dave Wilbur may rip me apart on this subject but do we really need this satellite irrigation that costs so much in the US?  Why the hell do you need $1 million to $2 million irrigation installation costs?

In Norway which has an average labour cost per hour of $21.00 per hour and we still manage to deliver irrigation that hardly ever comes over $400,000 ex. Taxes.  I just can’t get my head around the figures that are quoted in the US.  Tom Doak was talking about $2 million at Texas just for the irrigation!!

We have been involved in a course this year which I feel is a reasonable 18 hole golf course that would live up to Aronimink and Gulph Mills (both of which I visited this year and are good courses) and the total cost for construction (including USGA greens which I controlled myself) was $3.47 million including irrigation and taxes.  

Are we constructing at too low prices and accepting that perfection is not achievable?  Yes, I think we are.  Are the likes of Doak, Hanse, C&C, Shackelford etc managing to achieve medium budgets with quality? I don’t know as I don’t know any of the budgets in their projects.  

I have heard the figures for Kingsbarns and how much that cost.  Would I have let a European architect on that site with the budget that Parsinen and Co. was allowing..NO WAY.

The sad thing in Europe at the moment is that there are NO architects anywhere near the ability of the really good architects in the US. NONE!!!  Yet most of the architects mentioned above have ALL studied the British Isles.  Doak had studying through a grant.  Hanse also the same but also spent time with the Hawtree Dynasty.  Crenshaw and Coore are both students of the Scottish game.  Most architects that love the game come to these isles to study the architecture.

Why has no European architect really produced anything worth talking about in a positive fashion? Is it because no architect in Europe can really be trusted with a good budget to create anything unique?  What has Europe really produced in architecture in the last 50 years?  A Dave Thomas/Peter Allis Belfry, a European Golf Design Woburn?

Can anyone answer this long question, are construction budgets in America way too high and why has no European architect produced anything worth putting on the world top 100 for the last 50 years?

Regards

Brian Phillips

[brad_miller]

Kingsbarns? Eddie Hakett's Waterville? David Kidd? But the list is not long. What are Europe's top 10-20 modern??

[Brian Phillips]

Brad,

Kingsbarns was the genius of Mark Parsinen and Co. and Kyle Phillips as well as the amazing shaper Mick McShane.  Parsinen also brought in some very good consultants including Robert Price but it wasn't a European 'design'.

I am glad you mentioned David Kidd.  He hasn't designed anything on his own yet in Europe apart from some alterations to the Geneagles courses for his Dad.  He has worked for Peter Nordwall and Howard Swan both well known architects in Europe however neither hav eproduced anything close to say Hidden Creek (to use reality).

I was really pleased to see that he got the the job for the latest course in the Disney area of St. Andrews.  I really hope he can prove that a scottish architect can produse the goods as no other has yet since MacKenzie (and he was born English)

BP.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

I noticed in the Links Best of Golf magazine....Queenwood is a new course by Kidd....designed in the heathland fashion.  Plus he has a course in Ireland and I believe a few others in Europe...but I am not placing Ireland and Scotland and England, Wales part of Europe.  So I would have to say he seems to be one of the few "european" designers getting good sites budgets etc...and not just churning out bunker and tee renovations...no offense to the others out there.

[Brian Phillips]

RCS or is that Stansfield?

I had totally forgotten about Queenwood.  Is that a good design?  Do we know? We will we ever find out as it is such a private course?

BP

[Slag_Bandoon]

I am glad you mentioned David Kidd.  He hasn't designed anything on his own yet in Europe apart from some alterations

BP.

Brian, What about Powerscourt in Dublin and Queenwood in Surrey?  Have you seen them yet?

  Go to    www.dmkgolfdesign.com      Click on Portfolio

(I'm a few minutes late I see.)

[Joe Hancock]

One big factor in the cost of American courses is golf car accomodation....

Joe

[Brian Phillips]

Slag,

My point is has any architect from Europe designed anything since Colt worth putting in the world's top 100 let alone top ten.  I haven't seen either of the courses you mentioned. Is Powerscourrt finished?  I have seen pictures of Queenwood personally from David himself.  Was I impressed? I don't know, it didn't look like anything truly special but I can't judge a site before I have seen it.

Has any course in Europe built in the last 50 years made an impact on world architecture that has been designed by an European architect?

No.

BP

[David Tepper]

Brian-
What about the work of Donald Steel? I have not played any of his courses in North America or the British Isles, but I know the Skibo Castle course has been well received. The fact that he has worked in North America would seem to make him unique among European GCAs.
DT

[Paul Turner]

Brian

I agree modern architecture is crap in Britain, truly awful.  

Budgets to build courses in Britain since the war have been miniscule compared with the US.  And when a decent budget is available, an American architect has been employed since it's perceived that these guys are the only ones that are worthy of it : see East Sussex National and Co .

But then again why hasn't a single British/European designer put in that extra effort to build something special, or at least different, on a low budget?  I don't know, but unless I'm missing something, it's really pathetic and an insult to pioneers like Colt, Fowler, Simpson who seemed to always breathe life into their courses even if they were small.

Perhaps it's simply because Britain is a very crowded island without much good land left for golf.  But Europe as a whole is another matter and there's really no excuse.

I wonder if the great new American courses have any impact in Britain and Europe?  i.e. Sand Hills... If not, why not?  Can't they see the similarities to the great links of Britain?  Perhaps Kingsbarns will have an impact; at last an American architect delivers with that big budget!

I do think the master architects in Britain aren't as revered as in the U.S. so perhaps this is a factor?   Did you even here Colt's name mentioned during this year's Open at Muirfield?  A sharp contrast from Bethpage and Tillie!

[John_D._Bernhardt]

My first blush is Donald Steel peaked out with his book. I have only played his work at Turnberry and it is so very average on a great piece of land.

[Brian Phillips]

David,

Skibo has been well received by who?  Golf World magazine?  I haven't spoken to anyone about apart from a greenkeeper at TOC and he hated it.

I am just worried about the state of architecture in Europe.  Where are we going and why is it not up to the same standard that is being produced by not only the Doaks and C & Cs of this world but also the Brauers and Richardsons.

Why have we not produced anything worth discussing?  

I am being critical with myself as well as I am not happy with anything I have built or designed yet.  I wonder if we have to slow down and look back at what Jeremy and I have worked and decide what direction we want to go.

It was important to visit Sand Hills and talk to people like Doak, C & C, Hanse, Brauer etc to listen to their ideas.

What I don't understand with the architects that have gone before me in this business in Europe is that all have visited great courses yet still produce boring courses.  Is this because clients that own the projects are too obsessed with earning money rather than creating a masterpiece first and then earning money.

This is where Kingsbarns is truly magnificent.  Not only did they employ an architect willing to listen but also employed consultants that really did make a positive difference.  Would this have happened if someone else apart from Parsinen and Co. had been in charge.

Just travel further North a few miles and look at the difference between St. Andrews Bay and Kingsbarns.  Which courses would you rather play?

Do the European architects really care about quality, fun design?  

I hope that in twenty years time I can put my hand on my heart and honestly say I have learnt from the writings of the likes of Klein, Shackelford and Daleys as well as Hunter and MacKenzie.  The problem I find with design in Europe is that they all seem very good at quoting MacKenzie's 13 principles but don't ever seem to manage to recreate on the ground.

Maybe some of us need to read Geoff Shackelford's books over again to give us a kick up the butt to wake us from this belief that we are producing quality golf courses.  

Brian Phillips

[Paul P]

There are now two courses in Powerscourt in Wicklow. I have played the first one many times and looked over the second. The green complexes in the first course are very highly rated - in their blurb, they compare them to Prestwick. I believe it's an excellent design.

Also, I may have some bias here, but Eddie Hackett has produced outstanding courses in tiny budgets. Enniscrone, Donegal, Waterville, Ballyliffin Old and Carne would not have been much better had a big budget American designer been commissioned. They are all superb. In fact, if an American designer had built the same courses, they would be regarded higher because of the name behind them.

Ruddy and Craddock have also produced some excellent designs. Driuds Glenn is the best park land course I've played (although I've not played in America). Then there's Ruddy's European Club. I also believe that when the new 18 in Rossapenna opens, it will be recognised as stunning.

I'm only really speaking from an Irish perspective, but there are examples, although not to the same scale as in the U.S...

[ForkaB]

Brian

Skibo is a good golf course.  I'd put it in the same general class as North Berwick, Gullane #1, Nairn, Machrahanish, etc.  Ran's review on this site is pretty complimentary, too.

I, like you, as amazed at US costings.  When I was Finance Convenor at one of my clubs here in Scotland in 1995 we got a windfall of $100,000 and it paid for a completely new irrigation system.

[Tom Doak]

Rich, I'm dumbstruck that you would put Skibo in the same category as North Berwick or Gullane #1.

Brian, when I was in Britain twenty years ago I spent a bit of time with Donald Steel, who was then the junior partner in Cotton, Pennink, Lawrie.  He showed me the Duchess course at Woburn which he'd been working on ... which had a budget of about $500,000 US.  The expectations were just so much lower than what we have in America ... the Brits understood that most of their great courses took years to evolve and reach their present level, and they didn't dream that they could build anything which would compete with Dornoch or St. Andrews.

Before the ascent of Pacific Dunes, my career was actually handicapped by the perception that we were "budget" designers.  Most clients in the States want first to know that you're building the best possible course, and only second that you can keep the costs in line.  (Some don't want to know this at all.)  It sounds mad, and it does have something to do with the number of spectacular financial failures of new courses in the past few years ... but it's true.

As for budgets ... we've been over the $3.47 million figure you mentioned only five times out of 15 ... and those aren't the courses we're famous for.  

I do agree with you about irrigation systems getting out of hand.  As systems have gotten more complicated, many architects have handed over that part of the work to specialized irrigation designers who encourage greater spending ... they sell the clients directly on the need for closer spacing and more sprinklers to achieve the perfection they want and make a great first impression.  The standards for opening a new course in the U.S. are too high ... but we've all got to compete in that environment.  

[ForkaB]

Brian

When you play Skibo and look at it honestly vis a vis Gullane #1 and North Berwick, you won't be dumbstruck, I don't think.

[Brian Phillips]

Dear Rich,

Skibo must be a very good course .  

I have played Sand Hills, Pine Valley, Merion, Carnoustie, Kingsbarns, Royal Aberdeen, Gullane, North Berwick, Aronimink, TOC, The Eden course, Cruden Bay, plus others in the last 13 months.

North Berwick is top of my list of fun courses to play and visit!!  Gullane is also not far down the list.  North Berwick, Sand Hills and Pine Valley are three of the courses I would choose if I had a choice of 3 courses to play the rest of my life.

I look forward to playing it....

Brian.

[ward peyronnin]

Tom & Brian,

I am still unclear regarding impacts on irrigation and the relative costs. Doesn't climate and turf have a large deternminate on what is required(as well as the "green" expectations of the customer)? And this is what the irrigation designers are responding to to an extent?
Norway or the British isles surely have lesser requirements than Texas. Does that explain your budgets vs. some over here.
An interesting question is are their strategies to reduce the dependance of harsher climes on irrigation? ie turf selection, soil preperation, nematodes, etc.?

Best
Ward Peyronnin

[ForkaB]

Tom Doak

Sorry for confusing you with Brian Phillips, but I assumed you were he when I made my point about Skibo vs. North Berwick, etc., as we were in the middle of a "conversation."  Over cyberspace, all architects look the same ........ (I'd insert a smiley face in here if I had not sworn off "emoticons" recently).

My point was probably (very) slightly overstated because Brain had previously said that his only knowledge of Skibo was what some greenkeeper at TOC told him, so I was really saying, "see for yourself!"  That being said, I do stand by my assessment.  I think NB, as fun as Brian rightly says it is and as historically important as it is, has too many average holes to be called "great."  Neither is Skibo "great", but it is a good, solid golf course.  I think Steele could have done better, but it ain't bad.  In fact, the only real weaknesses I see on the course are in the final 3 holes where he decided (or was told) to get off the links and route 3 holes out to and along the Loch.  Gorgeous scenery, but 16 is just a slog through the meadow grass and 17 and 18 (which are the "signature holes") are more tricked up than tricky.  Of course, even a nearly completely objective observer such as I can't help but be impressed by the sense of self-importance which the place has about it.  Very characteristic "Top-100" sort of thing...................

Brian

Make sure you amend your CV/resume to include "Often confused with Tom Doak."

[Tom Doak]

Rich:  That very "sense of self-importance" seemed so out of place when looking at the golf holes at Skibo that it dragged the course down with it, for me.

Ward:  Yes, climate does have much to do with irrigation needs.  But ten years ago no one would have dreamed of putting in a $2 million irrigation system in west Texas or in Colorado, and they still managed to build golf courses there somehow.  The water wasn't perfectly distributed (it still isn't) and the courses weren't green for the same width, but I'm not sure the new ones are really $1 million better.

[Mark_F]

Could it be related to access?

After all, the average punter in Britain can pretty much play any course he wants.

Therefore, is an architect likely to spend hundreds or thousands of man hours lovingly crafting a brilliant course and neglecting other work in the meantime when the punters are just as likely to head for Birkdale because it's on the rota and the pro's love it?

I have some old copies of Golf World stacked on my shelf.  In their bi-annual Best Courses list, they also mention up and comers.

Has anyone played Orchardleigh, Forest Pines, Linden Hall, Harleyford or The Roxburghe?

[Brian Phillips]

Mark,

The Roxburghe is a Dave Thomas design not all that far from Edinburgh.  I couldn't find it in this years top 100 in the British Isles in Golf World.  

Should an architect put less work into a design just because he thinks no one will want to play it? Definately not.  It is the responsibility of any architect to give his best shot no matter what outside influences he may encounter.

I think the younger architect like myself at 33 has an easier job than the architects of the last thirty years because of the improvement in the technology of communication. I have the opportunity now to ask advice from anyone in the world from the likes of Paul Daley, Neil Crafter, Mike Clayton in Aussie to Jeff Brauer, Tom Doak, TE Paul in America and get an answer within hours not days or weeks.

I do feel that the architects that I speak to here in Britain are behind the times and need to catch up.  Some of them are just short of arrogance with nothing to be arrogant about!

Tom Doak and Co. treat me as an equal but I have not always been treated as an equal in Britain.  Line Mortensen's essay in Paul Daley's new book sums up a lot about how far behind we are in Europe.

Hopefully, there is a new breed coming through and a number of students on the MSc course I am on now will hopefully break through and the members of the EIGCA had better watch out as some of these guys are gifted (IMHO), and will be competing with them and winning contracts.

A mentor reminded me that it is better to build an expensive golf course that functions and looks good all year round than build a budget course that shuts when the weather gets tough.  This is absolutely true and if the money is available then it should be used to make sure the course functions in all conditions but I also feel that we do need to look at costs such as irrigation and it is our responsibility as architects to inform the clients what is necesarry and what isn't.

I have argued many times with clients to put less irrigation in and put in more drainage and failed a number of times.

Brian.