Will Pebble Beach become a 17 hole course?

[Brian_Gracely]

After seeing Scott's picture of the new "pot" bunker on #15, I began to wonder:

- Pebble Beach is the most visible public course in America
- Pebble Beach is located in lawsuit-happy California
- Pebble Beach is visited by many non-golfers (first-timers, etc.)

At Pat Mucci's insistance, I read through the ADA.  Pat was trying to convince me that its provisions will be the death of interesting architecture on public courses.  

So I have to ask....how in the world is a person in a wheelchair supposed to get in an out of that bunker?  Why would Pebble Beach expose themselves to the potential ADA lawsuits and allow a bunker like that to be built?  How could their lawyers have allowed this to happen?  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Currently, bunkers are not covered under the Federal ADA, and I don't know of any states that have written any stricter laws.  

The Fed guidelines were drafted with help from disabled golfers, who didn't feel that their access to bunkers should supercede the architectural requirements.  However, its possible that in the future, some activist will sue to make bunkers accessible, with at least one flat side where his playing assistant could move the ball to a wheelchair accessible area next to the bunker.  

Like you, I fear that some day, ADA could be used to require all golf courses to be as flat as an airport runway in the name of wheelchair accessibility.  Or outlaw sand filled bunkers, since wheelchairs can't negotiate that surface.

For now, though, things are still very reasonable. There are features - like platform greens - that will rarely be seen again.  While I have designed these, its necessary to raise the cart path to nearly green level to comply with ADA.

BTW, ADA applies to most private courses as well.  Any private club that hosts outside events is considered a place of public accomodation, and thus, is subject to ADA.

[Rick Shefchik]

Watching the Open this weekend has reinforced my opinion that American golf needs far more of these kinds of bunkers, not fewer. To answer Patrick's question about what we love most about the Open, to me it's pot bunkers and driveable par 4s, and you can't have the latter without the former.

The ADA could conceivably stop every sport in its tracks, if reason is abandoned. I have faith in our country's collective sanity that this won't happen.

[A_Clay_Man]

I've never seen anyone golf in a wheelchair.
However, I have seen many a golfer thats missing at least one appendage.
They could get out of that bunker. I'm not defending the law or the bunker only the pointing out the ridiculousness of both.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

There aren't many, but there are some wheelchair gofers. When ADA first became an issue, I played in an ADA tournament and was inspired by how resiliant the disabled were in trying to participate in activities they loved.  

That kind of changed my mind about how ridiculous "reasonable accomodation" is.  As noted earlier, as long as its reasonable, its a worthy goal.  IMHO, if we DO have to modify all the character out of courses at some point, it will be a shame, and I suspect all golf vacations will be taken to countries that don't pass laws that wreck gca works of art.

But, if it happens, that will be a long time coming.

[Cliff Hamm]

The courts have been typically reasonable in their decisions concerning ADA.  With Bush appointing at least one and likely more future justices I would not expect decisions that expanded rights of the disabled.  Most court decisions involve employmeent where ADA has the greatest impact. The fear that golf architecture will be ruined I continue to believe is unfounded. The disabled seek access in a reasonable manner to golf.  That is not too much to ask and should not require drastic change to golf arcitecture.  Adam is quite correct in his observations.  I too have never seen a wheelchair bound individual playing golf altho some do.  Again only reasonable accomodation is necessary.  Most folks who seek access have orthopedic difficulties, such as arthritis, which makes walking long distances  impossible and they merely seek to be able to get reasonably closer to greens and tees.  

There is no need to rehash the discussion we previously had in May in reference to Bethpage Black but the sky will not fall and golf will not dramatically change because folks with disabilities have access.  I truely believe that bunkers will continue to be able to be deep, etc. but if resonable should provide access.  Again if reasonable. BTW I am glad that Mr. Mucci (from the Nebrasksa thread) now realizes that ADA is law and not a "right of entitlement"

[Patrick_Mucci]

BTW, ADA applies to most private courses as well.  Any private club that hosts outside events is considered a place of public accomodation, and thus, is subject to ADA.
Jeff,

That's not true.

It depends on how you define an outside event.

If a member wants to invite his 150 biggest-best customers that would not be defined as an outside event.

If a member wanted to host a charity outing for a family member, depending upon the composition of the field, that would not be an outside event.

And, it can depend upon whether or not the event is sponsored by a member, and the member's relationship to the event.

One of the things I found interesting at Wild Horse was the configuration of their bunkers.  I couldn't help but wonder if they were constructed for access by Sand Pros or wheelchairs or both.[/color]

Cliff Hamm,

It's not just my concern.
It's the concern of golf course developers who brought the subject up in a discussion related to new and existing projects.

Everyone's willing to be cavalier about these issues until they have to put their capital at risk.
 
Your definition of Paux Romana depends upon the definition of the word "reasonable" a definition subject to changing viewpoints and interpretation or both.

You're entitled to your opinion, but experience has taught me that once there's the slightest of cracks in the dam, it's only a matter of time before the floodgates are opened.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Hey Redan

Obviously you do not know much in the way of grammer.    "ADA is perhapsa well-intentioned poorly written and interpreted law"  Please explain this one.

[Dennis_Harwood]

This post has two major problems--

The first is that there is a modified Rules of Golf adopted by the USGA and R&A which were carefully developed with the blessing and cooperation with various organizations representing those with various disabilities-- Chech the USGA website for those Rules-- Hence Rules have already been adopted covering this situation--

They basically insure that the disabled are able to play the game on an equal basis as the ablebodied-- (IE, the provisions of Rule 28 modified relating to balls unplayable on the course, including bunker)s--

Please note that there are lots of lies on a course where no one can play a ball (or they choose not to do so) and that does not mean  (obviously) that courses must be designed with only playable lies--

Second, there is lack of understanding of ADA-- The ADA regulations only require that a game can be played and special accomadations are made to permit access (which Pebble does have)  -- ADA does NOT require access by the disabled to ALL areas of a facility so long as handicapped are able to generally have access to the facility (an example, a theater or stadium does NOT have to provide access to every seat to the disabled, so long as some disabled areas are available and they are able to view the contest, show etc),

I assure you Peblble complies-- ADA does not require that all bunkers be removed or that all bunkers are accessable, so long as the game can be played by disabled persons ( they are not required to play out of bunkers)-=-