More Changes at ANGC?

[Jeff_Brauer]

The problem with the theory underlying the changes is that the greens are so different.  It's one thing to hit 3 iron or 4 wood or whatever to a par 3 with greens that stimp at 6-8 so that when you miss the green, you can get your chips and pitches up and down.  It's another thing entirely to hit it to a green that stimps at 14, so that even a 20 footer is no sure 3, and guys who miss the green are chipping to the hood of a Volkswagen and hoping to stop it.

It seems to me that Hootie is seeing club selection on approach as synonymous with the admirable goal of "maintaining the same shot values".  But to treat them as synonymous when the greens have changed so much is just hogwash because the penalties for the misses are MUCH more severe now with today's fast greens than they were back then.  

Shivas, I agree that the thinking at ANGC focuses on getting players to hit the same club as years ago.  Having the fw bunkers in play, etc. all follows that.

However, ANGC has always been famous for its fw chipping areas that carry the misses down the slope, a la Scottish courses.  Do you suppose the penalties for missing the green with long irons exceeded those of say, St. Andrews , even in 1930, the supposed model for ANGC the year it was designed?

In that way, maybe the added length to ANGC does take it back somewhat to its roots, assuming the fw slopes around the green stay intact, and are not replaced with rough.

[Bill Gayne]

Link to article in Washington Post describing the changes. It may not come up because it's a registration site but it's free.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/28/AR2005062801327.html

Total yardage 7445

The club is altering three holes -- Nos. 1, 4 and 7 -- on the front side and three -- 11, 15 and 17 -- on the back.

[Ken Fry]

Would someone smarter than me please explain why trees are being added?  Yes, I know they're trying to tighten playing corridors to stress accuracy.  I visited Augusta this past April for the first time.  I was in awe walking around the course, but on #11, all I could think was, "those trees on the right look ridiculous."

Someone educate me, please!

Ken

[Mike_Cirba]

Would someone smarter than me please explain why trees are being added?  Yes, I know they're trying to tighten playing corridors to stress accuracy.  I visited Augusta this past April for the first time.  I was in awe walking around the course, but on #11, all I could think was, "those trees on the right look ridiculous."

Someone educate me, please!

Ken

Ken,

Same here...first visit, same impressions.

I also felt the same way about the trees on the right of 15, as well as on 17.  Ugly, incongruous, and impeding spectators...not a good thing in any measure.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff, I'm not talking about the slopes around the greens.  What I'm saying is: when you miss the green, it's a boatload easier to get up and down to a severely contoured green if the green stimps at 6-8 vs. 14.  Picture short siding yourself, where you have to hit a little flop or whatever.  At 14, even the slightest slope away makes that shot death.  But at 6-8, it's do-able.  Thus, by bringing the tees back so the same clubs are getting hit as the old days, they are not restoring the old shot values.  They are creating new ones.  Bobby Jones could short side himself with a 4 wood into #4 and still have a chance to get up and down.  Today's players in the Masters cannot.  That ain't the same shot values to me.  That's just the same clubs in.

Shivas,

Take your time frame back 100 years to the model for ANGC - St. Andrews.  Don't you think those greens were lightning fast with not water?  And the banks were fast and bumpy?  If SA is the model, the course Jones loved above all others, don't you think chipping on slick greens was part of his love for SA, even with long clubs in?  

Hole 4 is a representation of the Eden, and if you ever got above the hole on the Eden, even into the 1990's, you could hardly keep it on the green.  Wouldn't that possibility of not getting your recovery shot close be part of both Jones and MacK philosphy, provided you hit the wrong spot?

For that matter, how did the fourth, representing a 150 yard hole at SA, come out as a 220 yarder in 1933, unless Jones felt you had to lengthen the shot to accomodate the same shot values found at the prototype hole?

For that matter, the traditional set up of ANGC has always favored long bombers and good putters.  Could we interpret the added length as a way to keep that core value of ANGC intact?

Just playing devil's advocate, but I may have a point!

Another question about the course set up.  As long as they are just adding back tees, I suppose its possible for the everyday player at Augusta to play the 6900 yard tees and enjoy it the way it used to be, no?  Do they mow the fw cuts wall to wall for normal play?  If so, other than the new trees, adding the back tees would possibly get the best of both worlds - a tournament ready course that maintains its ties to history - well, to some point in its history.

[Mike_Cirba]

Another question about the course set up.  As long as they are just adding back tees, I suppose its possible for the everyday player at Augusta to play the 6900 yard tees and enjoy it the way it used to be, no?  Do they mow the fw cuts wall to wall for normal play?  

Jeff,

Actually, no.  ANGC only maintains 2 sets of tees, one for the Masters and the other for Member play.  I don't have the card in front of me but I believe it's about 6,300 yards.

[Steve_Lemmon]

This is the end of the old champions being able to come out and  keep even a little bit of their dignity during the first two rounds of the tournament.  It makes the course almost unplayable for them, even with new equipment, unless they are playing for bogey on the longer holes.  

[Ken Fry]

I also felt the same way about the trees on the right of 15, as well as on 17.  Ugly, incongruous, and impeding spectators...not a good thing in any measure.

Mike,

The trees on the right of #11 created a bubble in the crowd that made spectating a joke.  It looked like an escaped nursery.

When most courses are realizing how excessive tree planting has removed the strategic options available to play, ANGC goes in the opposite direction.

I have a hard time believing that Bob Jones and Alister MacKenzie wanted a golf course with limited options and no room for player creativity.

Ken

[Mike_Cirba]

I also felt the same way about the trees on the right of 15, as well as on 17.  Ugly, incongruous, and impeding spectators...not a good thing in any measure.

Mike,

The trees on the right of #11 created a bubble in the crowd that made spectating a joke.  It looked like an escaped nursery.

When most courses are realizing how excessive tree planting has removed the strategic options available to play, ANGC goes in the opposite direction.

I have a hard time believing that Bob Jones and Alister MacKenzie wanted a golf course with limited options and no room for player creativity.

Ken

Amen, Ken.

It's a joke at this point.