Punchbowl greens

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, Your right. It is the third.

Odd? Well it's quirky that's for sure, and I sort of liked the blindness from the tee, although--and this isn't Mike Rewinski's fault in anyway--the hole is just too rough-grassed around the edges for my tastes. It's also been greatly altered I'm told.

Here is an image from the tee. That's the top of the flag just popping-up above the grass!

[John Kirk]

#5 at Kingsley Club

[tomgoutman]

Number 2 at Torresdale (Ross).

[Lawrence Largent]

#15 at Mountian Lake and #7 Camargo Club

Lawrence

[wsmorrison]

10 at Lehigh is a bit of one, wouldn't you say Mark and Bill V.  It is rare for Flynn.  What a terrific hole from tee to green.  Doesn't the green have an overall slope a bit front to back?

[Steve Sayers]

LuLu’s 8th:

From about 125 yards:




Looking back toward the tee:

[Philip Gawith]

The 9th at Hoylake - which is called.....Punchbowl.

[John Kirk]

I don't know if Tom Doak would describe it as such, but #15 at Ballyneal is a natural punchbowl green, and it is a beauty.

[Mike_DeVries]

#5 at Kingsley Club

Kingsley #4 is a huge double bowl and #18 is a small oblong bowl -- both holes are about 400 yards.

[Kyle Harris]

Number 2 at Torresdale (Ross).

My memory may be fading about the place, but I don't remember that as being a Punchbowl...

Can you post a pic or two?

[Jimmy Muratt]

The thing that I really like about the Punchbowl #15 at Mountain Lake is the length of the hole.  It's a short par 4 of only 324 yards so is actually driveable under the right conditions.  There is a creek down the right side of the hole as well.  Below are a few pics from Mike Sweeney's excellent profile.

From the tee:


From the fairway:

[Jim Sweeney]

#7 at Camargo

[MBL]

#5 at St. Louis is a wonderful punchbowl.

And the hole will only get better as it receives restoration attention this Fall

[James Bennett]

At a course I play near Melbourne, the green complex plays as a long iron or fairway wood for the 200-220 yard hitter, thus not giving them free entry to the bowl in two. the gentle gradient from the front into the green also means that those approaching from a shallower ball flight are likely to see their balls feed to the back edge of the green or fringe over the back, making a downhill putt of some considerable length. Only those players with no more than a mid iron in hand who can carry the ball beyond the first few feet of green will be able to stop it by the middle. A front hole location requires these players to finesse a running shot to a landing area close to the "rim" of the start of the bowl, whilst the long iron/wood hitter has to run the ball in landing it short of the rim.

Tony

I found this comment of interest.  Where is it?

At my course, we have a weak punchbowl of about 250 degrees circumference.  By weak, I mean that most of the front, the left and the back of the green slope towards the middle, albeit gently.  However, the low point is from the front right through to the middle right of the green.  The green can drain to the front right, where a small dam is built.  The green is the largest on our course at about 600 sq metres (about 6000 sq feet), and is probably 1.6 times the average green size.  It is a long par 4 with a second shot that plays significantly downhill to a green with a fronting dam, especially on the rhs of the green.  The playability is similar to that which Tony Titheridge describes, ie a long iron/fairway wood that takes on the fronting dam will probably feed to the back of the green, but be retained by the back, a middle iron has the chance to get nearer the pin, but the risk of coming up short in the dam increases.  For the person that goes for it but wimps out left, a difficult uphill chip shot to a green sloping away awaits.  For the lay-up second shot, a well-struck wedge pitch for the third will hold, but anything less will kick on from the down slope towards the back of the green.

We don't have the 'winter-kill' issues here down-under in Oz associated with punch-bowl greens.  Would a three-quarter punchbowl (ie draining to one corner, in our case towards a significant hazard) solve this winterkill problem whilst preserving some of the uniqueness of a punchbowl?

[Geoffrey Childs]

The old third hole at Yale was a HUGE double punchbowl green with the pond behind it.



It lasted until the superintendent bulldozed it away and built the current flat out of character green behind the hill that everyone mistakes for alps.

What a hole this would be to restore.

[Jeff Goldman]

#12 at Chicago Golf Club is about as good as it gets and tough as nails.  

Look for it at the Walker Cup

Indeed!  I played Chicago Golf Club with the irrepressible and always hilarious Gerry Barad this past Sunday.  Outstanding. The best Redan I have seen (admittedly a small group), 210 yards or so, and it played perfectly, and a terrific eden and double plateau also, and an excellent biarritz (front half not mowed as green). The Punchbowl was hilarious fun.  I was the only one to get away with par, possibly because I was also the only one who laid up.  A terrific short too with a "terraced" green I could have tried to putt all day.  Some of the bunkering is not quite as penal as some others places, but great to play as it entices some risky shots, and the greens and green sites were stunning.  Gerry and I have been talking about the place almost nonstop ever since (he has been there a bunch of times, but this was my first).  I didn't kill anything playing with him this time either.  

A little contrast with Shoreacres, where it seemed that the most memorable holes are not necessary the template holes but the unique 11, 15, etc., which use the ravines to great effect, whereas at Chicago the most thrilling at first glance were the templates.  First Biarritz I have seen where the front half is not green.  Played great.  Will be an excellent matchplay course, and it should be an outstanding Walker Cup.  There are back tees on only a few holes, most especially 17, where there is a tee back to about 465.  Gerry took a whack from it and hit a magnificent drive that just made the fairway because of how far back the tee was.  The high grass is growing in nicely as well.  Jon Jennings, CGCS, looks to have done an outstanding job.

Also, the members and staff could not have been more gracious and welcoming.  Pretty crowded too, for that place; I think I saw 2 or 3 other groups out there.    What a day!

[Gerry B]

agree with Geoff  / Jeff that the 12th at Chicago is a gem - my definition of a great golf hole.

I will add the par 4 - 5th at Atlantic City GC  - (which coincidentally is called the Punchbowl l believe that Tom Doak is very familiar with this hole.

[JSlonis]

The 7th at Mountain Ridge(NJ). Donald Ross.  With the quick greenspeeds at MR, every ball that is hit at least 5 paces onto the green finds some part of the middle of the green.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mark, in Wales i was interested to find so many greens located in little bowls.  The greens themselves were not punchbowls per se.  The whole greens complex was.

[olivier]

Golf de Granville http://perso.wanadoo.fr/golfdegranville/ in western France had a very pronounced one on an almost blind short par 3 (6th or 7th hole). I hope the renovations made some years ago did not alter it. It was great fun to play.
 
 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom,  You're right - there are a lot of greens in depressions in Wales - two in particular on the North Wales golf course at Llandudno.  I can also think of greens which are raised within a punchbowl such as the 5th at Prenton (part-Mackenzie) on the Wirral and I seem to recall one on the old course at Gog Magog outside Cambridge.  The 5th at Ringway (Colt/Braid) close to Manchester Airport is another example.

[Tony_Muldoon]

There is a little 9 holer, Thames Ditton & Esher, that is the perfect after work course.  18 holes are just over 5000yrds long.  It is played on the edge of a common and dog walkers abound.  Despite being a relatively flat site ,it's age and variety of holes give it a surprising ammount of character.

The 3rd hole is approx 150 yards long and all you can see is the top of the flag accross a sea of bracken. The green is almost circular with a bunker to the rear.  It's great fun to walk up and see where your ball finished.  It doesn't collect your shot as the a area around it is flat and sides are near vertical and unmown.  Better to just miss the green than be stuck on the walls.

Due to the fact that it's good ground for golf, this green which is 4-5' below the rest of the terrain, remains playable even in winter.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Just recieved an email from my brother.

"Can't believe none of them have mentioned the 14th at Cruden Bay"

Wellcome to GCA Richard