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Dub_ONeill

  • Karma: +0/-0
OSU Scarlet restoration
« on: June 28, 2005, 10:55:16 AM »
For any that are interested, the "restoration" of the Scarlet course is well underway.  Most of it seems to be as advertised and deals with reshaping bunkers, recontouring greens, and removing trees.  The one more basic change so far is to the fourth hole, a short par five that runs along the west edge of the property with a green that sits very close to the boundary fence.  The tee location is being maintained on this hole, but the fairway is being rerouted to the east and the green is being moved approximately 80 yards to the east so that the hole now runs along and around the small lake on the property.  The idea seems to be that the lake will have a finger built out in front of or around this green.  Though it is hard to tell from what can be seen at this point, it appears that this will bring water into to play on both a second shot lay up over the existing creek and a subsequent third shot to the green and will make reaching this green in two more risky for the NCAA bombers than it has been in the past.  In some ways it appears it may have a little of the feel of the eighth hole at Scioto.

Mike_Cirba

Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2005, 11:00:08 AM »
Dub,

So, they've "restored" the 8th hole 80 yards to the east of where it was originally?  ::) ;D

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2005, 11:29:50 AM »
recontouring greens
Thanks for the report.
How many "scarlet" greens?
I recall reading the releases, that only a couple were to be modified.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

T_MacWood

Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2005, 12:29:13 PM »
Dub
It appears you have a fairly liberal definition of the term 'restoration'.  :)

I've been told the 4th is redesigned as you describe with newly expanded pond guarding the green (I don't have the stomach to go out look at it myself)...the funny thing is this was not part of the plan which was posted in the clubhouse. One wonders what other surprises they might have up their sleeves.

Rumor has it they are going to gas all 18 greens, another change in the plan...I'm not certain what that might mean in the way of altering the greens, other than obviously all new surfaces.

Its pretty amazing how quickly a classic golf course can be changed into modern one. I've already recommended they take down the MacKenzie plan hanging above the fireplace in the clubhouse and replace it with a Nicklaus plan. On the positive side, at least the NCAA bombers will be challenged for four days every eight years or so.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2005, 12:30:24 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2005, 12:33:06 PM »
(I don't have the stomach to go out look at it myself

Tom please don't hide.
I belive you do have the stomach for it.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Dub_ONeill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2005, 01:47:34 PM »
Tom:
I don't think designing a new hole is part of a "restoration" at all and would have prefered it not be done.  Heck, I'm still grumpy about Weiskopf flattening the seventeenth green years ago so that players almost never putt off the green and down the hill anymore. Don't you think, however, that the fourth was one of the weaker holes on the course - that is to say not very interesting?  I don't know what it looks like in the clubhouse drawings, but it has never been one of my favorites.  Do you think there is any chance this change will make for a better hole, or is it sacrilege to pose the question?
The last information I saw  looked like it listed at least half the greens for "recontouring" but I had not heard anything about gassing them all.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2005, 01:50:41 PM by Dub_ONeill »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2005, 02:15:34 PM »
Dub,

I am confused.  If the green on #4 is being moved 80 yards to the east, what's going to happen to the big willows on the right and the tee to #5.  That would make it over a 100 yard walk to the tee.  Perhaps things have changed a lot in the past 8-10 years since I've visited, but no, I don't agree with you that #4 is the easiest hole.  That honor belongs to 14, though #7 is right up there as well.  Some contouring of the green on four away from the fronting bunker, perhaps raised a bit, and eliminating the short left side maybe would have been better.

Who is the project manager and how can I get in touch with him?  I may be there for a short visit in a week or so and may have an hour or two to spare.

Is there a reopening date for next year?  Where are the members and other regulars now playing besides Grey?

TMac,

I was not aware that you considered Scarlet a MacKenzie course?  It certainly has had more of a modern flavor since the 1970s than other places like Scioto or Inverness, even after the latter two were changed.

Dub_ONeill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2005, 02:38:09 PM »
Lou,
I'm not sure exactly which willows you mean, but all of the trees along the west side lake shore have been taken down along with a couple of the mature trees which used to be on the right side of the fairway near the present green.  The new green is just around the north west edge of the lake in a spot that previously was not in play on any hole.  The large trees to the right of the fifth green are not impacted by this change.  Described another way, the new green would be on a line between the forward tee on number six (the par five) and the forward tee on number five (the par three).  The new fourth green will not be much farther from the forward tee on number five (now mostly used as the members' tee) than the present green, but it will be a considerably further to the back tee.  I trust i have further confused the siuation with this description.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2005, 08:11:08 PM »
Hope they have a chainsaw!

 ;)


Seriously, it is hard to tell just how good Scarlet is with so many c$#p trees everywhere!

 :-[ :P


Good luck!


"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2005, 12:14:14 AM »
Paul,

Could the same advice be given to Beverly?  Personally, I had no problems in the 1970s with the hardwoods.  The spruces with their ground hugging branches were the main culprits.  The crab apple and willows were not much good either.

Tom,

I never said that I prefer the "glitzy new designs" to the classic courses.  As a rule, I do find that the average modern course is better than the one from the classical era.

Personally, I play classical courses better because they're typically shorter, often tighter, and require more imagination on and around the greens.  I also think that the bottom of the market today is far superior than in earlier times, and that there is a greater concentration of very good to excellent courses built in the last 40 to 50 years.  As to the top 10 or 20 courses, I suspect that classical era courses may win out.

You are right about Inverness and the three holes in the valley created by the Fazios.  I disagree with your characterization of Scioto, at least at the time I played it back in the 1970s.

As to the old #17 green, I don't share your affection for the tiered steep slope.  In 1978, as the defending first flight champion, I three-putted from 20' below the hole during the final round against Carroll Burton, my second putt barely two feet past and with a 2"+ break R to L, downhill.  I didn't even think about missing it and my not so valiant, half-hearted effort slid just a bit more across the edge on the chicken side.  Carroll made an expectacular four from under the wire boundary fence, and he won the 18th hole when I buried my 2nd near the lip of the left greeside bunker to tie the match.   Carroll then disposed of me in SD on #1 when I shanked my First-Flight Monster sand wedge on my approach shot into the spruces on the right of the green.  Amazing how I remember these boring details so vividly 25 years later, yet today I sometimes can't recall what I scored on a hole in the round played earlier that week.

I always liked the fourth hole as it was.  It required a good tee shot, a well thought out second, and a delicate third, specially when the hole was cut just below the bunker on the right side.  I can probably count the number of times I've hit the green on two in one hand over several hundred rounds, and never when the cup was placed right of center.  When they set up the tees on #14 just to the back right of #13 green, I thought that Scarlet had a very strong set of par 5s.  No doubt that today the kids are hitting #6 and #12 on two.  Back when I was there, they had to use the ladies tees on 12 to entice the NCAA competitors to go for the green on two.  Now they can probably reach it with an iron from the back, something I've only done with a 3-wood (as in persimon) but a handful of times.

I have so many great memories of the place.  It is such a good course with a bunch of nice people (okay, the Colonel and Brown excluded).  Do you know if Mr. Stillwagon passed on?  How about Joe Kish and Carroll Burton?  What great guys.  I've seen Ralph Guaracci a couple of times down here in Texas visiting his uncle Bob.  Is Ralph's father, Frank, still playing?  I am starting to get homesick, too personal, and a bit melancholy, so I better stop.  If you respond, perhaps it is better that you do so by E-Mail.  

Dub_ONeill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2005, 09:39:27 AM »
The last time the NCAA's were played at Scarlet, they played fourteen from the forward tee as a par four.  It played as the most difficult hole in the tournament in relation to par as a four.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2005, 01:18:40 PM »
Dub,

I think that it was 1975 when I saw the NCAA finals there.  Wake Forest won, with Jay Haas the medalist.  Curtis Strange shot a nifty round of 67 with a double-bogey on #3, probably the best round of golf I have seen in person.  Corey Pavin, Jerry Pate, the Walrus were some of the other competitors.  

They could hit it long then, but not to the length where #12 could be played as a par 4.  That shallow green was not meant to hold a long iron shot.  Please don't tell me that they were hitting short irons into it.  

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2005, 04:47:50 PM »
Lou

>Paul,

Could the same advice be given to Beverly?  Personally, I had no problems in the 1970s with the hardwoods.  The spruces with their ground hugging branches were the main culprits.  The crab apple and willows were not much good either.


You lost me on this one.


Beverly has removed 500-plus trees, including another 80-plus since you saw the course last fall.

Where are the tree problems that you refer to now?

 ??? ???
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Dub_ONeill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2005, 04:52:13 PM »
Lou,
I hate to be the bearer of disturbing news, but whenTiger played number 12 in the NCAA he hit the green with a second shot 6 iron from the back tee on a day that was so wet every tee shot plugged.

TEPaul

Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2005, 09:46:07 PM »
Tom MacWood:

Isn't OSU Scarlett nominally your "home course" within shouting distance of the Ivory Tower? Didn't the Nicklaus organization contact you to do research or didn't you contact them? If so, how could you let this happen?   ;)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2005, 11:07:56 PM »
Here we go again......... :'(

TEPaul

Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2005, 05:30:20 AM »
Tom MacWood:

According to you the entire "restoration" of the OSU Scarlett O'Hara course sounds like to total "mistake". And you say your essay ("expert research") started them all down the wrong road?? Congratulations. No wonder you don't trust restoration projects.

Would you say the changes Nicklaus & Co made to ANGC are inspired more by Rhett Butler than Alister MacKenzie?

"There's always the land, Katie Scarlett,
There's always the land."

"Oh fiddledeedee---
I'll think about it tomorrow"
« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 05:37:47 AM by TEPaul »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2005, 06:46:53 AM »
Tom


In a vein similar to Augusta, it sounds as though they will be ADDING trees to Scarlet, instead of removing them, no?


Perhaps a few more conifers are in order.


In fact, if they REALLY wish to toughen up the joint, they should place said conifers in FRONT of the greens instead of to the back and sides.

 :-[
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Brent Hutto

Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2005, 06:57:31 AM »
So let's say you're a university. Let's also suppose you have an old golf course that everyone has heard of. The only "problems" you have are that college golfers can play your well-known course with driver and wedge on most holes and can shoot low scores.

If you dig up the existing course and build a modern 7,500 yard monster in its place maybe, just maybe, the big hitters won't be able to play driver-wedge and they won't go low as often. Here's the stroke of genius. You call the construction project a "renovation" or even "restoration" and keep the name the same. Now you have the best of both worlds, you're the owner of a "classic" course that everyone has heard of and you've fixed the "problems" of driver-wedge and low scores.

Is there any university in the US who would do differently under those circumstances? Universities are incredibly, laughably, insanely status conscious. The chance to own both the name "OSU Scarlet" and a modern man-sized golf course that can humble the best collegiate golfers is like eating their cake and having it too. It's an obvious win-win situation from the university's point of view. The fact that it is stupid, fake and historically false is not really an issue.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2005, 07:27:35 AM »
Brent

> It's an obvious win-win situation from the university's point of view. The fact that it is stupid, fake and historically false is not really an issue.


Great point.  Agreed.


However,

>The chance to own both the name "OSU Scarlet"


Isn't it actually "THE OSU Scarlet"??
 ::)


Lenghthening it, toughening it up, and making it into a REAL arboretum - that's the way to go.

 >:( :-[
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2005, 08:44:50 AM »
Tom

>good on the tree front.


So you liked my idea then? :o ::)

>Perhaps a few more conifers are in order.

>In fact, if they REALLY wish to toughen up the joint, they should place said conifers in FRONT of the greens instead of to the back and sides.

  :-[ :P :-[
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2005, 08:50:17 AM »
Tom

>Paul
OSU has removed hundreds of trees in the last couple of years.


In all seriousness, I am very glad to hear this.  The vast number of trees, especially those of the 'weed' variety, overwhelmed much of the course when I played there a few years ago.

Now that this re-do appears to be progressing, it appears I will never get to see Scarlet as Mackenzie intended. :-[ :( :-X
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Patrick_Mucci

Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2005, 10:38:50 PM »
TE
I could have used an ivy tower instead of my usual ivory tower. Unfortunately I'm a nobody, but then again if I were somebody it wouldn't have mattered either. They didn't listen to Hurdzan or Weiskopf or the few architects with MacKenzie expertise, nor the green committe or the majority of the membership.

Absent the written documentation, it's hard to know exactly what Hurdzan, Weiskopf or architects who specialize in MacKenzie recommended.  The same would apply to the green committee and membership interests.

That's why it's so important to express your thoughts vis a vis a written document.
The document has to be acknowledged and perhaps responded to.  But, at least it's on the record of dissent and can't be dismissed as hearsay.
[/color]

Universities do what they want to.

Who were the decision makers acting on behalf of the University ?

Do you know their names and their titles ?
[/color]

The sad thing is I'm probably more to blame than anyone for the direction of the 'restoration'. They used my essay as an excuse to make changes. They said read the essay, the course is not a true MacKenzie, its not a completed MacKenzie...therefore there is nothing to preserve, so they could do what they want.

Why do you feel that MacKenzie's "intent" was never carried through to fruition over all of these years ?
[/color]

I was to meet with a representative of Nicklaus prior to the holidays, but the one day he was availabe I was out of town (I think it was the same period when you had your nervous breakdown following my e-mail about Crump killing himself). Sadly I never heard from then again, and the plan was competed shortly after the first of the year.

Why weren't you more persistent in your attempts to communicate and influence the work being done on the golf course ?


When is the construction work begining, this fall  ?
[/color]  

Most will love the new Scarlet, and really thats all that matters...right?  :)

It will be super hard, extremely challenging off the tee, with usual difficult green and looooooong--almost 7500 par-71 from the tips. The new bunkers are very dramatic, extremely large and quite deep. I'm not sure what they remind of....a cross between PGA West, Nicklaus and psuedo-MacKenzie, Thomas, Thompson.

Unlike most MacKenzie courses, which try to engage and entertain all class of golfers, this course appears to be designed for the first class collegiate golfer. Very little interest inside 270 yards...on most of the holes, all the action is from around 250, 260 or 270 to 300, 310...with a few excpetions (the first hole).

The MacKenzie plan, like most MacKenzie's, had features starting at 130 yards or so off the tee...old men, women and the average Joe, should be thrilled once in while IMO.

You'll also be glad to hear they've torn up all the original greens...a new super fast surface, of course that will mean the softening of some of those Maxwell/MacKenzie rolls, but at least they'll be able to get the stimp up to 11 or 12, which I'm sure will please you and many others. The maintence meld possiblities will be bountiful

I don't care for the new fourth, the only thing it has going for it is the water hazard near the green....but not a particularly attractive water feature IMO. And the new fairway, way to the right of the old fairway, is over fairly boring terrrain, espcially when compared to the nice land movement of the old routing. I suspect the new 4th looks good on paper, unfortunately I'm not so sure it will translate on the ground.

There is one positive: they appear to be getting rid of the damn rocks that lines the lake and all the streams. What an eye soar that was.

Tom, did you put pen to paper and present all of your thoughts to the University, from the Board to the President down to the project chairman, and to Jack Nicklaus and his organization ?

If not, you should have.

All that's needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing, and it appears that you did very little in your effort to preserve or restore a golf course that you hold near and dear to your heart.

I think you were capable of having a positive impact on the outcome.
[/color]

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2005, 08:25:12 AM »

Your certainly correct that you don't hire Nicklaus to do a restoration, you hire him to make it a "championship" course or sell real estate.  

In his book and the article in Links he makes it quite clear that he has not read the classic books, does not go out of his way to play classic courses that aren't part of the tour and he does not look at other architects work.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:OSU Scarlet restoration
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2005, 08:57:36 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Don't be so sensitive.

You didn't mind criticizing my approach on similar projects.

For all of your criticism of my methods, at least I had input and influence and managed to get things done.  
You managed to accomplished zip, zero, nada, nothing.
Perhaps you should rethink what happens in the real world as TEPaul and I had suggested some time ago.   Perhaps you could have altered the fate of a golf course you feel so strongly about.

There's no disgrace in failure if the effort is a noble pursuit.
But, a half hearted or misdirected effort isn't a noble pursuit.

The AD isn't the power base.
It's the Board and President.

I'd agree that once Nicklaus's organization was chosen the die was cast and there was little you could do at that point.
The time to lobby for your cause was prior to that decision.

When was that decision made ?
And, when was the new AD hired ?

The next time I make a suggestion with respect to a golf course or country club project perhaps you'll be less critical.  Then again, perhaps not.
Or perhaps, instead of being critical, you'll be supportive.
Sometimes the end justifies the means.
Unfortunately, that's not happening at the Scarlet Course at OSU.