Palmetto Golf Club (Dr. Mackenzie) Nov 2011 Photo Tour - All 18 Up!

[John Mayhugh]

Hole 1: P4, 387 Yards - tame downhill opener with great green.  Not sure of the timeline, but one has to wonder if Maxwell if influenced the good doctor with these downhill openers.

Leeds was responsible for most of the routing.  Mackenzie converted greens from sand to grass & lengthened the course.

Correct Mackenzie did not do the routing.

So sort of like Cypress Point with Raynor doing the majority of the routing?

Not very much like CPC. 

At Palmetto, Leeds did the majority of the routing. The course was constructed using sand greens, and there were 18 holes on the ground in 1895.  Mackenzie did not get involved until 1932. 

At CPC, Raynor was the original architect. However, he died before the course was constructed.  Mackenzie took over the project, but there is no clear record of how much of Raynor's routing Mackenzie used. 

For me, at least, there seems a big difference between building the course and making changes more than 30 years after the course opened.

[Mark Saltzman]

Courtesy John Stiles from the Routing Compilation thread:

A sketch of  Palmetto Golf Club circa 1931, before the conversion from sand to grass greens.

[Mark Saltzman]

And, courtesy of Joe Bausch, Leeds' original 9-hole routing:

Palmetto Golf Club, Aiken, SC (March 22, 1896; NY Sun; Willie Camp...errrr, H. C. Leeds the architect).

[Niall Hay]

Hole 1: P4, 387 Yards - tame downhill opener with great green.  Not sure of the timeline, but one has to wonder if Maxwell if influenced the good doctor with these downhill openers.

Leeds was responsible for most of the routing.  Mackenzie converted greens from sand to grass & lengthened the course.

Correct Mackenzie did not do the routing.

So sort of like Cypress Point with Raynor doing the majority of the routing?

Not very much like CPC. 

At Palmetto, Leeds did the majority of the routing. The course was constructed using sand greens, and there were 18 holes on the ground in 1895.  Mackenzie did not get involved until 1932. 

At CPC, Raynor was the original architect. However, he died before the course was constructed.  Mackenzie took over the project, but there is no clear record of how much of Raynor's routing Mackenzie used. 

For me, at least, there seems a big difference between building the course and making changes more than 30 years after the course opened.

See your point and agree they are not similar in the sense that they are not identical situations as they clearly were not. But my point was that The Good Doctor was not the original architect nor did he do the routing. Many experts believe that Raynor was responsible for routing at least a portion of CPC routing. Regardless in both projects Mac was not starting from scratch, he was building on something.

[John Mayhugh]

See your point and agree they are not similar in the sense that they are not identical situations as they clearly were not. But my point was that The Good Doctor was not the original architect nor did he do the routing. Many experts believe that Raynor was responsible for routing at least a portion of CPC routing. Regardless in both projects Mac was not starting from scratch, he was building on something.

While Mackenzie was not the originally selected architect at CPC, no one seems to know how much of Raynor's routing he used.  I think there is a big difference between building a course and making modifications to one that's around 40 years old. 

If Stiles could come up with a Raynor routing for CPC, that would really advance this discussion!

[Niall Hay]

 

If Stiles could come up with a Raynor routing for CPC, that would really advance this discussion!

[/quote]

Now THAT would be an incredible discussion. Is there one in existence? Is there solid documentation of Raynor's involvement?

[Niall Hay]

Cypress Point was then raised as an example of Mackenzie, that great course routing genius, making the most of a fabulous site – a mix of pine forests, great eroded sand flashes, jutting cliffs into the sea, and not caring about back-to-back par 5’s and par 3’s, because that’s what the site yielded most naturally. Let’s be a little careful here, however, and give credit where it’s due: the essential routing for Cypress Point was undertaken by Seth Raynor in September and October 1924, nearly two years before Mackenzie was asked by Samuel Morse, (the real estate developer of much of the Peninsula), on Seth Raynor’s untimely death, to finalize the golf course design on the point. Raynor’s routing plan (dated X.’24) shows that Mackenzie changed little in his plan, although the famous Hole 16 was a risk-what-you-dare 320 yard par-4 playing from tees further back and hugging the inner coast, the drive more towards the 18th hole. And the 18th green seems to be about up towards where the clubhouse now is – a hole of some 390 yards instead of the Mackenzie – realized 345 yards par-4. (Did Mackenzie ’compromise’ Hole 18’s length on instruction from the fledgling club’s board about relocating Raynor’s original clubhouse site, nearer the sea, up to the crown of the hill?)

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thank you Mark, I am intrigued.


I have not played here but the SGH comment may be because the land there travels up and down quite a bit.


Like the drop shot Par 3, there’s another at the Valley Club. Can anyone point to other MacKenzie’s examples?

[Michael Whitaker]

Cypress Point was then raised as an example of Mackenzie, that great course routing genius, making the most of a fabulous site – a mix of pine forests, great eroded sand flashes, jutting cliffs into the sea, and not caring about back-to-back par 5’s and par 3’s, because that’s what the site yielded most naturally. Let’s be a little careful here, however, and give credit where it’s due: the essential routing for Cypress Point was undertaken by Seth Raynor in September and October 1924, nearly two years before Mackenzie was asked by Samuel Morse, (the real estate developer of much of the Peninsula), on Seth Raynor’s untimely death, to finalize the golf course design on the point. Raynor’s routing plan (dated X.’24) shows that Mackenzie changed little in his plan, although the famous Hole 16 was a risk-what-you-dare 320 yard par-4 playing from tees further back and hugging the inner coast, the drive more towards the 18th hole. And the 18th green seems to be about up towards where the clubhouse now is – a hole of some 390 yards instead of the Mackenzie – realized 345 yards par-4. (Did Mackenzie ’compromise’ Hole 18’s length on instruction from the fledgling club’s board about relocating Raynor’s original clubhouse site, nearer the sea, up to the crown of the hill?)

Niall - This would make for an excellent new topic. Why don't you start a new thread so that those in the know might contribute. I think it will get lost and forgotten in here.

[Sean Leary]

I really believe this is an All World hole:


Thoughts?

Mike, I agree with you 100% on this.

Mark, thanks again for the incredible pics.

Do the trees make the hole or would it be better without them? I like the trees, for the record (in pics).

[jeffwarne]

Actually the trees were there long before the pond
The real problem trees are on the opposite side of the fairway preventing a long bail driver

[DMoriarty]

Cypress Point was then raised as an example of Mackenzie, that great course routing genius, making the most of a fabulous site – a mix of pine forests, great eroded sand flashes, jutting cliffs into the sea, and not caring about back-to-back par 5’s and par 3’s, because that’s what the site yielded most naturally. Let’s be a little careful here, however, and give credit where it’s due: the essential routing for Cypress Point was undertaken by Seth Raynor in September and October 1924, nearly two years before Mackenzie was asked by Samuel Morse, (the real estate developer of much of the Peninsula), on Seth Raynor’s untimely death, to finalize the golf course design on the point. Raynor’s routing plan (dated X.’24) shows that Mackenzie changed little in his plan, although the famous Hole 16 was a risk-what-you-dare 320 yard par-4 playing from tees further back and hugging the inner coast, the drive more towards the 18th hole. And the 18th green seems to be about up towards where the clubhouse now is – a hole of some 390 yards instead of the Mackenzie – realized 345 yards par-4. (Did Mackenzie ’compromise’ Hole 18’s length on instruction from the fledgling club’s board about relocating Raynor’s original clubhouse site, nearer the sea, up to the crown of the hill?)

Another thread is probably more appropriate for the topic, but until then someone should mention that the paragraph above is from 2005 essay by Tony Cashmore, who hasn't seen any Raynor routing, but spoke to someone who claimed to have seen it back in 1976. Here is a link to the essay:  

http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfarchitecture/5785-routing-golf-courses-my-personal-experience

Mr. Cashmore was kind enough to follow up here on gca.com:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,17293.msg306254.html#msg306254

[Niall Hay]

Cypress Point was then raised as an example of Mackenzie, that great course routing genius, making the most of a fabulous site – a mix of pine forests, great eroded sand flashes, jutting cliffs into the sea, and not caring about back-to-back par 5’s and par 3’s, because that’s what the site yielded most naturally. Let’s be a little careful here, however, and give credit where it’s due: the essential routing for Cypress Point was undertaken by Seth Raynor in September and October 1924, nearly two years before Mackenzie was asked by Samuel Morse, (the real estate developer of much of the Peninsula), on Seth Raynor’s untimely death, to finalize the golf course design on the point. Raynor’s routing plan (dated X.’24) shows that Mackenzie changed little in his plan, although the famous Hole 16 was a risk-what-you-dare 320 yard par-4 playing from tees further back and hugging the inner coast, the drive more towards the 18th hole. And the 18th green seems to be about up towards where the clubhouse now is – a hole of some 390 yards instead of the Mackenzie – realized 345 yards par-4. (Did Mackenzie ’compromise’ Hole 18’s length on instruction from the fledgling club’s board about relocating Raynor’s original clubhouse site, nearer the sea, up to the crown of the hill?)

Niall - This would make for an excellent new topic. Why don't you start a new thread so that those in the know might contribute. I think it will get lost and forgotten in here.

Michael, just commented on an old thread that may have moved this discussion back to the forefront.....Who routed Cypress--Dr. Mac or Raynor?

[Niall Hay]

And, courtesy of Joe Bausch, Leeds' original 9-hole routing:

Palmetto Golf Club, Aiken, SC (March 22, 1896; NY Sun; Willie Camp...errrr, H. C. Leeds the architect).

For those of you who have played Myopia Hunt Club, are there any similarities with another Leeds design and routing?

[DMoriarty]

Niall, so far as I can figure and as was reported at the time, Myopia was originally laid out by Willie Campbell, not Leeds, so I wouldn't expect to see any striking similarities with the original routing.  (Plenty of dispute about this if you care to dig through the archives.)  That said, no doubt Leeds had a heavy influence at both courses so I too would be curious as to whether any possible similarities are still identifiable.

[Niall Hay]

Niall, so far as I can figure and as was reported at the time, Myopia was originally laid out by Willie Campbell, not Leeds, so I wouldn't expect to see any striking similarities with the original routing.  (Plenty of dispute about this if you care to dig through the archives.)  That said, no doubt Leeds had a heavy influence at both courses so I too would be curious as to whether any possible similarities are still identifiable.

Yeah, I read through the Campbell vs. Leeds threads last night. Had people on here as excited as the Mac vs. Raynor CPC routing argument. Good stuff!