Punchbowl greens

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The wonderful photos of Deal on Noel Freeman's thread set me thinking about punchbowl greens.  I could think of very few.  Stepped greens, rolling greens, domed greens, table-top greens, hill-top greens: I could think of plenty, but, apart from Deal and Painswick, I'm struggling to think of others.  Conwy used to have some, but they were mostly flattened when they laid on water to the greens.  Only the 7th survives (an excellent long par 4).  What other good punchbowls have I forgotten?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

4th at Fishers Island

10th at Yale is a semi-punchbowl

[Tyler Kearns]

16th at National Golf Links

[Michael Moore]

"Green Monster" 4th hole, Black Rock, Hingham MA, Brian Silva.


Approach is blind, over a gigantic thirty foot embankment that spans the entire hole, then running pretty good downhill for about 100 yards to a super punchbowl complex.

Sensational.

He also has something similar and also quite dramatic with the fourth hole at Red Tail.

In both cases the collecting area of the punchbowl is simply enormous.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

5th at Forsgate, The Banks Course.

And yes, Bill, I've played it  

From the middle, and back tees.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

There are several modern examples.  I built one in Plano, TX.  Brian Silva did one in Tennesee, I think.

They have fallen out of favor for practical reasons.  As Ross noted, they inevitably have some drainage problems that are best avoided.  With the demand for higher quality putting surfaces, riding mowers, etc. those practicalities are greater than ever.

Also, great players hate them, because they treat a bad shot equally to a good one.  Average playes love them for the same reason!

[james soper]

17th at yeamans hall

[tonyt]

great players hate them, because they treat a bad shot equally to a good one.  Average playes love them for the same reason!

This comment is spot on. So here is my question to archies;

When they are well done and the concept works, what element/s are there that help define this? I would love to hear a few thoughts on this.

At a course I play near Melbourne, the green complex plays as a long iron or fairway wood for the 200-220 yard hitter, thus not giving them free entry to the bowl in two. the gentle gradient from the front into the green also means that those approaching from a shallower ball flight are likely to see their balls feed to the back edge of the green or fringe over the back, making a downhill putt of some considerable length. Only those players with no more than a mid iron in hand who can carry the ball beyond the first few feet of green will be able to stop it by the middle. A front hole location requires these players to finesse a running shot to a landing area close to the "rim" of the start of the bowl, whilst the long iron/wood hitter has to run the ball in landing it short of the rim.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

I suspect good players have more respect for the Redan concept over a punch bowl.  If a kick in bank is on one side only, and it allows them some strategy of getting on the green two ways (one is direct challenge of hazard, the other involves creative shot, perhaps requiring more spin, or maybe less) they can relate.  Also, it may give players off the fw a way to recover, which is always cool.

Sounds like your punchbowl requires some exact placement depending on how you approach.  However, makes me wonder if the concept is good on an over 200 yard approach.....

[tonyt]

Sorry, my post means long iron or fairway wood for the player who is a 200-220 hitter off the tee with driver. With nobody in our group in single digits, there are at least two who will play 5-7 iron in.

[john_stiles]

The one in Tennessee is hole #6 at Black Creek, Chattanooga designed by Brian Silva.

The green is very large and has a pronounced punchbowl.

[Tom_Doak]

We had a thread on this a few months back, and the Norwegian contingent were horrified at the idea because of the possibility of dead grass from ice damage.  I mentioned that the 7th at Crystal Downs and the 10th at High Pointe had survived for a long time even though they are true punchbowls ... but sure enough, the 7th at Crystal Downs had two large dead spots in the bowls this spring!

I think the potential for damage is more severe nowadays because the grass is stressed out more all through its growing season, and isn't as likely to survive winter stresses.

Nevertheless, I do love the occasional punchbowl for the sake of variety ... and the fact that they give the average player a much-needed good bounce against a superior opponent.

One of my favorites is the 18th green at Cape Kidnappers, which you can approach straight-on, or try to play a bounce-in from the left side.  Julian Robertson didn't like it; he was aghast at the thought that in some future New Zealand the winner would hit a bad shot to the last green and get a good bounce and make a birdie to win.  However, the bank on the left is quite severe, so if you tuck the hole location up against that side, no one is ever going to get close by aiming left.  Michael Campbell backed me up on that to Julian when he visited the site during construction ... which is one of the reasons I was happy to see Michael win last week.

[Kyle Harris]

Tommy Naccarato's favorite: The 8th at Lulu  

[Dan_Callahan]

Supposedly Oxford Greens, the new Mungeam course in Conn that opens for play next week, has both a punch bowl (#11) and a redan (#13). Here are the descriptions from the Web site (www.oxfordgreens.com):

#11 (par 4, 374 yards): Aim for the right side of the fairway on the tee shot as the fairway slopes dramatically from right to left. Shots hit too far left will go down a steep embankment. Be aware of a series of bunkers barely visible on the right side of the fairway. The punchbowl green is blind from the landing area. The best approach is to aim right of the green and use the slope to kick shots onto the steeply sloped green protected by two bunkers on the left.

#13 (par 3, 185 yards): This medium length 3-par is fashioned after the famous 15th at North Berwick, Scotland. The green on the “Redan” is angled right to left with the putting surface sloped to the back left. A deep bunker protects the front, left of the green. The smart shot is to aim right of the green and let the slope release the ball to the cup.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Kyle,
Righteoooooo!!!!

Actually its the setting of the green itself that I really like. Its quirk at its best, but if I had to pick my favorite, it would undoubtedly be the 16th @ NGLA. Its a fine art form, especially when viewing it with Uncle George.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Speaking of George, maybe he could confirm if there is a punchbowl at Knoll.  I seem to recall mention of it on here awhile back, but I haven't played Knoll yet.  

[Nathan Cashwell]

Actually the 16th at Roaring Gap (Ross) is a punch bowl green.  It's a par 5 and the green is blind from your second shot, but if you challenge a bunker at the top of the ridge you can run the ball onto the green in two.  Fun hole, but a different green style than used to seeing on a Ross course.

[ForkaB]

8 and 17 at Dornoch.
10 at Brora

[peter_p]

Nefyn & District has one on the new course.

[Anthony_Nysse]

#5 at Westhampton

[Tommy_Naccarato]

#5 at Westhampton

Tony, you mean #2 don't you?  At least I thought it was a Punchbowl. Quite an interesting one too, but come to think of it, there are so many interesting greens on Westhampton that could be construed as such!

Speaking of Westhampton, yesterday, I got to the exact location of the 18th green of their once prized Oneck Course in the early evening yesterday. Whomever owns the house that is now on the location of that greensite has one dramatic view, and it would probably be even better if there weren't other houses around it! Sorry for quality. I snapped this image into the sunlight, while balancing myself on the top of a stump, while avoiding falling into the riparian areas of the winding creek that still exists there. It was also a quick snap before I got arrested for trespassing!

[Geoffrey Childs]

#12 at Chicago Golf Club is about as good as it gets and tough as nails.  

Look for it at the Walker Cup

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tommy,
  You're right...a littel to early in the morning for me to be posting, I guess!!  

[Tom_Doak]

I believe the punchbowl at Westhampton is actually the par-3 third hole.  It's an odd one.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

None the less, your right Tony, its a worthy one to add here.