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TEPaul

Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2005, 11:49:25 AM »
Has anyone ever heard that PVGC was supposed to have had a "Principles's Nose" bunker in on design iteration? Anyone know where it was supposed to be?
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Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2005, 12:23:14 PM »
Bogey:  I think I've been in Hell once in my various times playing the Old Course.  Don't remember if I got out in my first attempt.

However, I will say that when I was caddying there, the 14th hole was a daily train wreck for visiting golfers.  They'd hit it over the wall OB right, knock their tee shot in the Beardies, or top into the gorse.  Then they'd get up to Hell and (because we generally didn't steer them into oncoming traffic on #5 fairway) they'd either wind up in the bunker or the bushes to the right of the green.  I have never seen so many 9's and 10's posted on any single hole in my life!
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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2005, 12:24:27 PM »
Mike, Hell Bunker is certainly still a factor for many of us and easily reached in two (excellent) shots or three (average) shots!  I've been in there a few times, especially in the winter, and if you are not under the face or under a lip you can get out - even backwards.  It doesn't matter which way you come out because there is no way you could attempt to reach the green from there. It's just a dropped shot - until you are careless or unlucky when it can be horrendous.  I've not played the hole since they lowered the floor and steepened the face.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 12:25:25 PM by Mark_Rowlinson »
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BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2005, 01:36:53 PM »
The slit bunker across the 17th fairway at Muirfield is one of my favorites. It is ideally placed to make trouble for the second shot on a par 5.

It is so deep and so narrow, I can't imagine advancing the ball if you find yourself in it. In that regard, like Hell Bunker at TOC.

A great bunker.

Bob  
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Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2005, 02:02:34 PM »
Frightening, how much I agree with Doak on this thread. I caddied there in Sept. 1980 for about three weeks. Wrote a story or two about the incredulous look I'd get when suggesting to golfers (usually to Americans) that they play their second shot 30-degrees to the left down no. 5. They'd invariably refuse, and then half the time wind up in Hell.
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Mike Hendren

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2005, 02:08:35 PM »
Tom & Brad,

Both trips down the 14th I played a 5 or 6 iron down the 5th to that saddle left of Hell - near the "95" yards mark in the pic below.   I'm not good, but am coachable.  That tact, plus a trailing breeze, likely left me underestimating Hell and Hell's Kitchen.



Funny, I could never get a feel for the rumpled land between Hell and the green.  There must be some peril there that is not obvious to this untrained eye?

Mike
« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 02:13:13 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
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Paul_Turner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2005, 02:14:02 PM »
I think that huge bunker fronting the 8th at St George's Hill had some impact aesthetically/stylistically in 1912/13.  It was the pinnacle of man made bunker construction and photos were published in all the magazines (US included).  

I could be wrong but I haven't seen earlier photos of man made bunkers, on inland courses, that match it in terms of scale and natural ruggedness.  No wonder Robert Hunter picked it for his cover.
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Brian Phillips

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2005, 04:19:53 PM »
I always thought that the bunkers at the back of the 12th at Augusta National Golf Club were very influential in tournament play.

They are not big but no player wants to go in them due to the difficulty of the shot back towards the creek.  If they were not there it would be a much, much easier shot from the tee.

Brian.
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2005, 05:20:48 PM »
Bogey:  Thanks for the photo.  I see that by adding the latest back tee on 15, they've cleared out some of the nasty area people used to get into when they went to the right of Hell.

The rumpled ground you speak of isn't too much of a hazard itself ... the trouble is all that steep bank up at the front right corner of the green, which then falls away toward the back left.  I've seen very few people who are short and right of the green even get on the green with their next shot -- 90% are short and come back down the bank, sometimes more than once before they get it up there.
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Kris Kerr

Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2005, 12:26:27 AM »
Paul Turner asked about aesthetically influential bunkers. Besides those that have been mentioned, what about some of Tillie's at San Fran and Winged Foot for example?
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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2005, 05:35:51 AM »
How do the bunkers at the back of the 7th at Stoke Poges/Park compare with those on the 12th at Augusta, the latter reputedly modelled on the former?
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Brian Phillips

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2005, 12:02:26 PM »
Mark,

The two bunkers at the back of the green were put in by the club afterwards.  MacKenzie only had one bunker at the back and it was was on a large mound and did not seem to be in play at all.

Brian
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

TEPaul

Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2005, 02:37:36 PM »
As far as remarkable aesthetic bunkering I doubt one could find any as remarkable as what Mackenzie et al did at Cypress with those awesome contractors (mostly from Ireland) known as "The American Construction Company". The so-called "imitation sand dunes" done at practically the same time at Pebble must have been the same contractors. Some have even said they may've been imitating passing clouds.
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BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2005, 05:20:04 PM »
As a case of reverse influence, there is some evidence (it needs to be tracked down) that the paucity of bunkers at ANGC when it opened in '34 was very influential, resulting in many courses removing lots of bunkers over the following decade.

Bob
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 09:33:06 AM by BCrosby »
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Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 5
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2005, 08:43:41 PM »
Not many examples listed in this thread are on the first hole of the course. Is that an effect of the "start 'em easy" philosophy?

Is the first hole an inappropriate place to give the golfer a rude welcome to the course? ;D

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2005, 05:44:11 AM »
Joe, Interesting point.  TOC (Burn) and Royal Liverpool (double OOB) don't need them.
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wsmorrison

Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2005, 08:24:57 AM »
Bobsy,

Interesting point.  I know the NY Times article at the opening of Augusta National really trumpeted the new design with so few bunkers that made it easier for the common hack yet strategy for the champion golfer.  I'll try to post the article, that is if it is allowed.  Can newspaper articles from 70 years ago be posted in their entirety?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 08:25:28 AM by Wayne Morrison »
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T_MacWood

Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2005, 08:50:45 AM »
What about those first few MacKenzie bunkers built in Australia to help guide the construction crews in carrying out his designs...those bunkers had a major impact upon the architecture of the entire continent. Perhaps the same could be said with Alison's bunkers in Japan.

What about RTJ's bunkers at Oakland Hills?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 08:51:08 AM by Tom MacWood »
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BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2005, 09:34:40 AM »
Wayne -

I would love to see the NYT article. Don't worry about copyright issues. I know a good lawyer who will work for golf access.

Bob
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wsmorrison

Re:Influential bunkers
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2005, 09:46:16 AM »
I'd fax it to you, Bob, but I'm not so sure how well it will turn out.  I thought I told you how to get it using my account.  I'll call you in a few minutes.
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