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Kevin_Reilly

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More Changes at ANGC?
« on: June 23, 2005, 12:25:50 PM »
Saw this on another board...posted by an Augusta resident who has been on the mark in the past about changes at ANGC:
Quote
Number 4........245 yards........par 3..................was 205 yards

Number 11......540 yards........par 4..................was 490 yards

Number 15......moving the tee to the right...nearer the clubhouse.....this will be a pronounced dogleg right.  I think by moving the tee to the right the National will force the tee shot to be a fade. Exceept for Phil and Steve F, this will eliminate the draw and thereby cut down on distance. I'm sure the plan is to bring the trees on the left side of the fairway into play..........Maybe the plan is to both move the tee to the right and ALSO plant some new tall pines in the right about 75yards up the fairway.
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"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

PThomas

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2005, 12:46:51 PM »
wow!  interesting if true..those are pretty radical!
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike_Cirba

Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2005, 12:48:43 PM »
Super.

How will they accomplish those changes on #4?  By moving the green as was originally proposed?
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peter_p

Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2005, 03:03:31 PM »
#15 looks like a real stretch. If they move the tee back and to the right it gets real close to 10 green or 17 green. Also a lot of trees will need to come down, even the ones they planted to narrow the right side of 15.
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Brock Peyer

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2005, 04:00:19 PM »
#11...540 yds...???  I know that it is considerably down hill but isn't that going a bit far.  I would love to see the source and get confirmation from the club or something.  I have not one to bash the changes over the years but I think that is a bit much.  I wouldn't mind seeing #4 getting stretched out a bit more but that hole would be pretty tough at 240.
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2005, 04:09:14 PM »
Wow- well the 3rd at Winged Foot west can now play up to 260 yards so why not ANGC?  (ps- thats the par 3 that Billy Casper layed up al 4 days when it was what 210-215?)

I propose that ANGC have laser measurement of all the elevation changes, greens and placement of all trees.  I next propose they purchase the land adjacent to Shadow Creek and have Tom Fazio faithfully reproduce every single feature and transplant every tree except the new ANGC will be played at at 8000 yards with flexibility to expand out to 9000 yards.  They could have huge jet engines to simulate the winds and have them swirl around the new amen corner. They could even control the winds and change them at will.  
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 04:11:33 PM by Geoffrey Childs »
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Rick Shefchik

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2005, 05:35:54 PM »
I was told this week that Hazeltine plans to push the tee on #13 back to 245 yards before the next PGA there. I think a 240-yard par 3 is going to be pretty standard at all major championship courses. 200 yards is a 7-iron now.
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Matt_Ward

Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2005, 05:44:27 PM »
Kevin R:

Truly assinine if indeed it happens.

Augusta has completely lost it -- it was bad enough with the "second cut" and the silly trees added to the right of #11 and #15.

Jones must be turning over in his grave. :'(
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Kevin_Reilly

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2005, 06:58:12 PM »
New post from the original source of the info:

Quote
A friend just called and said on a flight into Augusta's Bush Field (AGS) he could definitely see the red clay where the construction is taking place on number 4.
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"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Patrick_Mucci

Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2005, 08:31:16 PM »
Kevin Reilly,

Based on the location of the 17th green and 10th hole I can't see # 15 as a "pronounced" dogleg.

It would also seem that moving the tee to the right would shorten the hole.
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Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2005, 03:36:51 PM »
News story confirming the above...plus a few additional holes.

Augusta to be lengthened
« Last Edit: June 28, 2005, 03:37:30 PM by Kevin_Reilly »
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"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

PThomas

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2005, 03:38:28 PM »
Kevin -- perhaps your friend is the new Deep Throat...
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tom Bagley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2005, 04:35:00 PM »
Check out the Masters.org website for a press release regarding the changes.   ???

http://www.masters.org/
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Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2005, 04:42:00 PM »
15 tee moving to golfer's left...different than described above it appears.
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"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tom Bagley

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2005, 04:49:22 PM »
By moving the tee to the left it would avoid the 10th green, although there is not much room between 15th tee and 14th green.

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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2005, 05:13:50 PM »
"Our objective is to maintain the integrity and shot values of the golf course as envisioned by (course designers) Bobby Jones and Alister Mackenzie.

That's where they are wrong... the integriy and shot values is not only about length...

Mackenzie and Jones planned shorter holes on the course. Some delicate pitch, some run-up shots...

now with genius I DON T CARE ABOUT HISTORY Fazio, they are really accomplishing the unthinkable... messing up Augusta National...


should it stay in the world top 10... If they keep going, ANGC will be a joke...

GOD protect Royal Melbourne from the Fazio's and Johnson of this world...
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Philippe Binette

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2005, 05:16:30 PM »
Emphazing on accuray at 450 yards (7th).... what are they talking about
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Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2005, 05:28:15 PM »
Whine all you want, but this quote is exactly true of #4.

"At No. 4 we want to keep the hole as it was intended to be played as a long par 3."

Does anyone here truly think Jones and MacKenzie built that hole for a 7-iron?
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Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2005, 05:43:26 PM »
Quote from: Tony_Chapman on June 28, 2005, 05:28:15 PM
Whine all you want, but this quote is exactly true of #4.

"At No. 4 we want to keep the hole as it was intended to be played as a long par 3."

Does anyone here truly think Jones and MacKenzie built that hole for a 7-iron?

Right on.

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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2005, 05:52:33 PM »
Quote from: Philippe Binette on June 28, 2005, 05:16:30 PM
Emphazing on accuray at 450 yards (7th).... what are they talking about

Hmm, a 320 yard drive and a delicate 130 yard wedge?  Sounds like a finesse hole to me for todays pros.  If anything, the additional length at 4 only make it a medium 3 par.

Looking at the course map, but not remembering topo back in the woods in several spots, it looks like 14, 16 and 6 tees could all be lengthened even more, if they wanted.  They could also move 13 green back, and recreate it, and I think that had been discussed, although tinkering with green locations is more character change that adding tees.

Seriously, if there is one course in the world that should change to the pro golfers, isn't it Augusta?  Used every year for the Masters, but rarely at other times.
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JLahrman

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2005, 06:28:43 PM »
I'm all for it.  The Masters is going to be The Masters anyway.  Cypress can be the control, Augusta can be the guinea pig.  Fifty years from now, those of us who aren't dead can debate who had it right.
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JSlonis

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2005, 09:40:33 PM »
Fella's...

On a flat shot with minimal wind, Tour players are not hitting 7 iron from 200 yards.  They are not hitting 7 irons into #4 at ANGC, unless the hole is straight downwind and blowing pretty strongly.

Yes, the golf ball is flying farther than ever, but let's not got carried away.  I've played a fair amount of golf with guys that hit it every bit as far as the top touring pro's, and 200 yard 7 irons are not at all common.

Take #4 at ANGC...if the card yardage for the day is 205:  You can subtract 10-13 yards for the downhill shot, if there is any wind at the player's back, you could subtract anywhere from another 10-20 yards.  You then have a par 3 that is 205 yards playing about 170-180.  Now you'll see some 7 irons.  You have to account for all of the variables when talking about these heroic distances.  
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Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2005, 10:01:29 PM »
Quote from: JSlonis on June 28, 2005, 09:40:33 PM
Fella's...

On a flat shot with minimal wind, Tour players are not hitting 7 iron from 200 yards.  They are not hitting 7 irons into #4 at ANGC, unless the hole is straight downwind and blowing pretty strongly.

Yes, the golf ball is flying farther than ever, but let's not got carried away.  I've played a fair amount of golf with guys that hit it every bit as far as the top touring pro's, and 200 yard 7 irons are not at all common.
 

Jamie-

  From your experience, are the particular clubs reported being pulled for a particular shot often exaggerated?  
 
Thank you

DRB
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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2005, 10:14:53 PM »
Augusta used to be a joy to navigate when following a group-now with all the stretching out there are multiple spectator bottlenecks-adding more length is only going to exasperate the situation

A shame nobody has the balls to address the ball/equipment situation-no other solution makes any sense-I'm tired of seeing solutions such as more rough,narrowing fairways,add'l length,moving bunkers,faster,firmer greens-all of these slow and/or change the game-The US Open setup at Pinehurst was extremely random to me(as was Shinnecock's setup-another great course I hardly recognized for a week)
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JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:More Changes at ANGC?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2005, 10:26:50 PM »
Doug,

In my opinion, yes, they are exaggerated.  What a lot of the broadcasters fail to mention are many of the variables that a particular player is faced with.  Is the shot uphill/downhill?  If so, how much.  Most commentators mention wind, but little else.  

A 175 yard shot is not always a 175 yard club.  As you know, an actual 175 yards could play anywhere from 150 to 190 yards depending.

Many times you'll hear a player is 190 yards to the hole.  What they don't mention is that a lot of times the player is not trying to hit his ball 190 yards.  He may be trying to land it 180, hoping to keep the ball under the hole, and to avoid going over the green.  There are so many factors that those top level players consider, but all you hear on TV is..."Boy, he's got 205 to the stick, and he's got a 6 iron!"  That is how those distances get exaggerated...the viewer usually doesn't get the whole picture.
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