[James Edwards]

Dan,

Can you post a picture?  Id like to see no.9 and the difference in strategic decision off the tee.

....calling Mr Boe - picture of no 9 if you have one.

[T_MacWood]

There have been a lot of postive comments about this golf course. What am I missing? Based on the photo it reminds me of numerous other upscale modern golf courses. What separates it from the rest?

[Scott_Burroughs]

#9 is dead center on top pic (back nine on bottom - Kinloch was AOTD #338):


from behind #9 green:


from club web site:

http://www.kinlochgolfclub.com/page/8-173.htm

[James Edwards]

Apologies Scott, should have thought of you where pictures are concerned.  

How does 18 play then?  Im trying to work out how it returns to the clubhouse area.

9 does indeed look a more enticing proposition and a fairer one at that than 11.

After looking a 2nd time from Scotts bhind the green shot - what advantages do you gain by going down the tighter right side?  Doesnt look like much is gained in terms of shot value for the approach?

[DTaylor18]

James, #18 is a fairly easy finishing hole for the better players, as long as you don't hook one in to the water, as it's not a long par 4.  I'm not sure on this, but i think they either have, or there was talk of changing the routing so that #9 is the finishing hole, when the club hosts events like the Virginia Am, which certainly makes sense.  You need a cart to get from #9 to #10.  Also note that the course has an excellent 19th hole to settle any unresolved matches.

[James Edwards]

Dan,
Do you mean the small formation jutting out into the water above 9?  or the clubhouse bar?  

[Bill Gayne]

There have been a lot of postive comments about this golf course. What am I missing? Based on the photo it reminds me of numerous other upscale modern golf courses. What separates it from the rest?

Tom,

I was one of the many blown away by the place. It does represent the best of modern golf in terms of service and conditioning.

However the soul of the place really is the golf course. There are 18 good to outstanding golf holes that fit the ground perfectly. Nothing seems artifical to the golf course (crazy mounding, forced routing, severe greens, etc.). There is a series of interlocking lakes and streams that the course plays around and through that impinge on the golf course just enough to set-up a couple of different options on those holes. The sheer size of the place while still maintaining the walkability aspect is not often seen. This size in combination with the maintenance also leads to multiple playing options.

The day I spent at Kinloch it was with something less than my A game. But it was clear to me based on my game and watching my playing partners that the course is truly playable for all level of golfers. It's just as interesting and fun for the mid handicapper as it is for the low handicapper although with the options available they are approaching the course differently.

Bill

[DTaylor18]

Dan,
Do you mean the small formation jutting out into the water above 9?  or the clubhouse bar?  

James, it depends on how well i played that day!  

[T_MacWood]

The fairways and the contours of the fairways, and the perimeters of the fairways don't look too natural; the bunkering also has a mass production look to them IMO. The fairways, the perimeters, the bunkers and some of the manipulated streams give the course a somewhat contrived photographic impression.

[NAF]

Bill Gayne-

I was fortunate enough to play Kinloch this past April. Like others here I must applaud and extend the highest accolades to Phil Owensby--a gentleman, a scholar and perhaps the most accomodating, nicest pro in the U.S.  The conditioning was firm, fast and furious, very Augusta-esque. One comment that you had confused me..

Is the routing not contrived when you have a 500 yard shuttle ride from #9 green to #10 tee and also back from #18 green to the clubhouse?  Given the sheer size and scale of the course, I don't know why the routing came off like that-- I believe it may have been perhaps a function of the land deal etc that took place.  Regardless, I think this took a little bit of shine off the course.

[Bill Gayne]

Tom,

On the ground I found it very natural for this part of Virginia. But I'm interested in hearing the comments of others.

NAF,

The shuttle ride from 9-10 and back to the clubhouse wasn't an issue for me in my thoughts on the course. The walks between the golf holes on the nines, I found very reasonable in terms of distance and slope.

Bill

[Scott_Burroughs]

To me, the distance between 9 and 10 was not really that far (I've walked much father before), it certainly could be walked, maybe the cart is more for the caddies.

In between #18 and the clubhouse is the 19th "bet settling" hole, the par 3 over the water.  The nines could certainly be reversed and the 19th hole would still be close by new #18.  Then, you couldn't make the short, simple walk from the range to the first tee.

Also, the new #1 would not be a gentle opener as is currently.

[PThomas]

as I said in my initial post, I think what makes Kinloch good is options..Bill reaffirmed this point in his post

and yes, there are long distances between the 9s but you can walk them if you want, I'm guessing, and I don't find that to be a fatal flaw

[NAF]

I can't write off the 500 yard walk that easily.. The only comparison I have is the 480 yard walk Ran, Jeff Mingay, Ben Dewar and myself did from 12th green to 13th tee at Cape Breton Highlands. That walk is a bucolic, tranquil, medatative samba along the Clyburn Brook with nothing but the fluttering of birds in your way.  Tisn't the same at Kinloch.  Stanley Thompson couldnt build a hole in between back in the day necessitating the walk and at least the lay of the land was such that you get an inspired moment in the round with the journey  It is still natural.. I didnt feel that way at Kinloch with the walk/shuttle- it disturbed me.  Many here have criticized the Bridge on Long Island for having similar shuttles.  

But for some, no big deal and no problem but how can you label the course natural with the shuttle ride and road you must cross to get from those areas?

I also did not think the bunkering style as natural but as a manufactured aesthetic type. Lester has his own style that suits him and that is the way it should be--it is his name on the course.  But in my experience, it does not look au natural ala other architects, new and old.  It looked to my eye like as being Augusta like.  The white sand was quite blinding  (from what I'm told that is the 3rd or 4th sand they've had in there).. Maybe it will weather in time to a more earthlike tone.

[PThomas]

I see your point, NAF...would I prefer if there was no long walk?  of course.....but as I said I don't consider this fatal....

[NAF]

Paul-

What did you think of the options on the 9th hole? Just want to compare your thoughts vs. mine..



Did you notice the 14th is named redan?



But it didnt have a modified redan green that I could ascertain.  Maybe just a misnomer or Lester's version of a modified redan.  I played it completely wrong to a sucker pin back right based upon the name.

[PThomas]

NAF -- I thought 9 was a great, wild, VERY good hole.....I only wish it had options for me, but, alas, I can't fade the ball if my life depended on it...a hook/draw sometimes, but not the former....

I think it also gets points because it I thought it was a pretty difficult par 5, as besides the dog leg and split fairways you have water hazards to contend with and an uphill approach shot, if I remember correctly....

[Anthony_Nysse]

The option fairway on #11 is very reachable and not too hard to hit.
  When I wrote up my review for Golfweek, the word that kept coming back to me was options when describing Kinloch....it's a very strong golf course.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[NAF]

The 9th to me epitomizes the high/low route of many of Kinloch's optional holes (say 2,4,9,11),  If you take the high road and go left of the valley/gully/burn then you have to usually hit a layup and then a wee pitch.  Fine.  But I saw my playing partner hit driver/3 wood and just miss the green and he is not a long hitter (not a short hitter either).  Going right which should shorten the hole requires a hard cut or a big draw way right of the trees and then you have to carry wetlands/rough terrain on your second and bunkers pinch you in (if you are short) as well.  That is just too much going on if you go right in my estimation along with the uphill nature.  I'd never go right and take my chances left and I (in previous days) was not a short plunker.. Now Matt Ward would also go right!!

On the 11th, again I will sing praises to Lester for providing options, I'm not sure they all work though.  The right route is much easier to reach but the fairway is narrow (25-30yds wide), you must carry a cross bunker as well.  Fine, you do that, then you have to carry a burn short of the green and contend with fronting bunker center to the find the correct side of the oblong green.  That is just too much going on, almost overload.  I think that given the options, there should be more open doors to the greens etc.  But the course is Vinnie Giles' home and I guess players of that caliber should have all the shots.

That all being said, these are par 5s.. not par 4s.

I'll applaud the attempts the golf course takes to be interesting.  It just didnt all fit in my estimation.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I played with Noel at Kinloch and I concur with his posted comments.

I also concur that the club atmosphere created by the members and especially Phil Owenby is a model for a private club to emulate.

If I could nearly knock it on in two on #9 playing the left side then a guy like redanman would never need to think of going right.  I tried to think if conditions/weather was different might that change the play and I can't see how it would as it would make playing right even more difficult.

The best option hole I think is the drivable (to some) short par four #4 on the front nine.  I hit hybrid right and short of the stream and had sand wedge in but upon walking to the tee shot you could see the ramp on the left that would feed a ball down to the green.  That green worked well as a drive too far left and long has a terribly difficult pitch with the green tilting back to front. We played a few balls from there afterwards to the back right pin location.

I didn't find the course inspiring enough to see why it fit in the top 10 modern courses a year ago.  I think Tom MacWood made a reasonable conclusion from looking at the photos.

Finally, I would ask what San Francisco Golf Club, Atlantic Golf Club and Kinloch all have in common?

Answer_ One Ran Morrissett paid a visit to each to play and yet did NOT bother to write a course profile.

[Bill Gayne]

NAF,

I understand your point about the bunkers not looking natural. Sand bunkers of any color don't look natural on any parkland course using the definition of natural being something that would occur in nature.

To me a natural looking bunker on a parkland course is one that fits the natural flow of the land forms. Bad parkland bunkers look like gouges in the ground or ones that are of a perfectly round shape.

To me the bunkers at Kinloch fit the natural flow of the land and were well placed.

Bill

[ChasLawler]

I might lose a few friends over this, but I’m going to have to side with Mr. Macwood as well. I’ve played there a number of times, and while the experience is certainly top notch, I find the architecture itself is only slightly above average.

Kinloch is ALL about the conditioning. Take that away and what do you really have?

The greens are rather mundane and really only interesting when running VERY fast – given they do run pretty fast most of the time, but once you’ve adjusted to the speed, there’s not a whole lot of interest to them.

Like Noel said, Lester has his own style of bunkering - and to each his own - but I have to agree that the style doesn’t work for me. Most of them are very flat and the stark white nature of the sand doesn’t suit my eye.

I think the property itself is outstanding. Walking with a caddie is very pleasant, although carrying your own bag does make you notice some of the longer gaps between holes – specifically that each tee is generally an uphill walk from the previous green.

…but part of what makes Kinloch appealing is probably the downhill nature of most of the holes, and I have to give Lester and Vinnie a lot of credit for creating that type of environment while still maintaining a very walkable routing.

Overall the place is a wonderful place to play, and I’m sure a great place to be a member, but if the clubhouse were not so lavish, and the maintenance budget were cut in half, would those who heap praises upon it’s architecture really still feel the same way about it?

[George Pazin]

...if the clubhouse were not so lavish, and the maintenance budget were cut in half, would those who heap praises upon it’s architecture really still feel the same way about it?

I sometimes think that modern courses would benefit, at least by those on here, by spending a little less and looking a little more rustic than Augusta perfect like.

[PThomas]

Cabell -- of course I don't have the experience of playing as  courses as many on this  board, but , yes, even without the great conditioning and clubhouse, I think Kinloch is still a darn good golf course

I also absolutely agree with George that perfect conditioning  is not necessary...

[John Kirk]

Boy, this thread has staying power!

I agree with NAF.  The sand is too white, and the walk from 9 to 10 is long and somewhat unnatural.  They also continue to augment natural drainage ditches with stones and running water; I wish they wouldn't do that.

Cabell just mentioned that we might not tout Kinloch so strongly if the club personnel, amenities, and course conditioning weren't first class.  However, they are an essential part of the club.  A member pays handsomely for the privelege of experiencing all these things, on a very nice golf course.

As a medium long hitter with a draw, I don't even consider the right side on 9 and 11.  But I will play the ball both ways on 2, 4, and 15.

I think 9 is really hard.  A perfect layup second shot down the left leaves about 130 uphill.  Very tough par.  You have to hit a great drive there to take a crack at the green from the back tees.

My favorite stretch of holes is 4-8.  I like the front nine better than the back, but 10 and 12 are very nice long par 4s.

One comment about architecture and minimalist design.  If you compare the course sloping with the surrounding native forested areas, you will see they match quite well.  I think if you asked Lester how much dirt they moved, the answer might be less than you think.

I enjoy Kinloch immensely.  Save for the ride between 9 and 10, it is an enjoyable walk in a nice park, and I am challenged to hit a wide variety of shots, while negotiating a wide variety of hazards.  And they treat you like king for a day.

I agree completely that Phil Owenby is an outstanding director of golf.  The entire staff is terrific, but let me also single out Tom Horton, the membership director.  In just five years, Kinloch has nearly filled their local membership, despite the sizable initiation fee.  An impressive testament to understanding what the customer wants.  Tom is smart, funny, and a great playing partner.

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