[wsmorrison]

This question has bothered me with the proliferation of new back tees on many classic era courses.  Where new tees have been built, they are often very well constructed, being laser leveled with perfect lines and corners but seem out of place on an old golf course, especially when juxtaposed with the more natural looking existing tees.

I'm sure straight and level tees are part of the trend towards fairness, but what's wrong with a bit of slope, enough for surface drainage?  Tees would look more natural and be cheaper to build (too bad for the contractors) because surface drainage is improved and there is less of a need for subsurface drainage.

Also, slight slopes can be an interesting component of shot demands and shot testing.  Try hitting a draw off a slight fade lie on the tee (its like a lot of shots around Huntingdon Valley for instance).

William Flynn, wrote this about tees in November 1927,

“Tees should conform as much as possible with the existing natural surface, but should it be necessary to build artificially the only requisite is to make them practically flat with enough slope to take care of surface drainage.

It is not necessary in building tees to have any particular slope, the player has the advantage of teeing his ball, which should be sufficient help.  A tee may very readily pitch forward backward to the right or left, and be a suitable too so long as it does not hold surface water.”

I'd appreciate hearing from the architects on this forum.  Is anyone building natural looking tees on courses that are of a natural or minimalist style?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Wayne,

Are you asking if you should build those little irregularities that develop over time, or whether there should be 0.5-1% surface slope for drainage, and if so, what direction?

I have tried to build tees that have some areas with slope for artistic reasons - budgets usually dicate that all of a tee be useful, ie level.  Given the cost of construction, and then maintenance, which is higher than rough or fw, it makes sense not to build too much non-useful tee in most cases, although it is a neat idea.

I know Doak built some very scottish looking tees that sort of rolled into the fairwy at his course in Myrtle Beach. I liked that look a lot.  I wonder if they have gotten formalized over the years?

I slope my tees, usually to the back, but sometimes to the side away from the cart path.  If the topography is downhill sharply, I might slope it forward, because draining the the back usually gets sloppy, and sometimes they look funny going against the grade.

I have heard the idea of sloping tees to favor a shot - although most good players want the tee to slope left on a draw shot and right on a fade - not the other way around to make the shot more difficult........I have never bought into that theory, since the slope is so close to level, but would be interested to hear from any player who actually considers the slope of the tee in planning a shot on a regular basis.

Overall, I think Flynn's comments from years ago still prevail.....

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
We have our fair share of small, older tee boxes in the NE and in many cases they're built with a crown for drainage or have settled in that manner over time. I wouldn't say I do it with regularity but there have been situations where I've used the crown to my favor.


 

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Going way back I can remember hearing about and talking about this kind of thing with some good players and how they feel about tees that sort of have somewhat of an in-line ridge, in other words the left side creates a situation where the ball is or feels slightly above your feet and on the other side (right) below your feet. Charlie Bolling (grew up at GMGC and went on the Tour) and Buddy Marucci loved that kind of slight unlevelness on either side. Some think players go to the right for a fade and the left for a draw just to create a bit more width for their shot or for the feeling it gives golfers of a bit more width for the shot but Marucci and Bolling loved that unlevelness on either side as they said it really helped them execute a draw on the left and a fade on the right.

And of course that slight in-line ridge does help drainage.

[A_Clay_Man]

I prefer the older non-level teeing grounds. If for no other reason than listening to people bitch about them. It gives me insight into what they think, golf is all about.

MEMEMEMEeeee (Beethoven's 9th)

[Kyle Harris]

How about tees that drain into a grate in the middle? Giving the player a choice of lies to start out with to favor a particular shot.

In my experience, most tees slope uphill a bit to give the player a boost and promote drainage.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

As a worse than average player, I have to say that I am easily put off by a tee which is not level - and they are to be found on most old courses in my part of England. However, if the width of the teeing ground is generous I am very likely to be able to find a spot to suit my limited ability.  But eceonomy-minded greenkeepers may well put the tee markers only 6 or 8 feet apart....  For some reason I find it more vexing on a short hole on which I am using an iron for the tee shot.

[wsmorrison]

"Are you asking if you should build those little irregularities that develop over time, or whether there should be 0.5-1% surface slope for drainage, and if so, what direction?"

Jeff,

I was thinking of both little irregularities and systematic slopes along the grades you mention for new tees on classic courses or new courses that are natural/minimalist in style.

Aesthetically it is not pleasing to see such straight and level lines on an old golf course.  Just like it is not pleasing to see narrow cross-hatching mowing patterns on old courses.

Combined with the interesting impact the slopes can have on shot selection, both favorable and unfavorable, that really test ball striking on a championship style golf course and surface drainage advantages, I think that natural style tees have advantages that can are worth considering.

How much teeing area is lost with small irregularities?  I guess there can be quite a range.  But a gentle slope should not reduce teeing grounds, should it?  I am far from an expert and am only going on my limited knowledge; I do not profess to be an expert.

Kyle,

Banish that thought from your mind.  Ugh  

Adam,

You sure do hear some moaning about non-level tees...after the errant shot!

Mark,

I would try and find the slopes or irregularities on the tees in your neck of the woods.  I bet you concentrate more and hit better...its just a mind set.  Try it out for a round and let's hear what the results are.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Check out your tee on 14 at Rolling Green next time you're out  

Technically I only said "How about..." hehe.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

That tee is as flat as a pool table.  If there was a wee bit of slope on the tee, you wouldn't have to have a grate.  I didn't build the tee box, more into concepts don't you know  

You're not sitting in a hotel room in Seattle typing on line are you?  Get out there and have some fun!  Or haven't you gone yet?  Or are you back?  Where the heck are you?  Ahhh, who cares  

[Kyle Harris]

We're actually at Kristy's brother's house in Tacoma. So I have access intermittently. Went into Seattle for the first time yesterday so that was neat. Still trying to figure out what to do today. I may steal out and play some local golf. I'll be back Tuesday morning.

The music museum in Seattle had a Bob Dylan exhibit, I got some pictures for you. Covered his earlier years: 1963-1967.

I seem to remember a tee at RG being that way, and I had it placed on a long par 3. 14 was an educated guess, but I dunno. It happens more frequently than people realize, and a lot of the time the drain is just a perf pipe.

[wsmorrison]

Probably was 16, no new back tee on 14...mostly because I suggested it.  There should be one though.  If I were king of the world it would be there later tonight!

[tonyt]

Level the tees please.

On a 200 acre rolling property with intricately fun slopes and contours and a delightful refusal to accommodate the "everything must be fair" ignoramus, there is room for 18 small level teeing grounds.

Just think, it gives the aforementioned ignoramus no excuse to bitch and moan when they play their second from a more undulating lie, because the tee box didn't make them hit it there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

I think most tees are built to accomodate drainage with either a crown or a slope, usually toe to heel for the righty golfer.

And, in some cases, they are built like the carrier deck for Harrier Jump Jets, with and upslope to assist with getting the ball airborne.

# 2 at NGLA is a good example of this.

[James Bennett]

My club has an uphill tee (good to get the ball up apparently) on a long par 3 (about 210 yards) that plays from an elevated position downhill (probably 25 feet elevation change) and into the prevailing wind.  Suffice to say, the hole is not high on the members' value list.

The tee wasn't planned that way (the back 'sunk' when constructed), and with a bit of luck it won't be played that way much longer!

I'm happy with a degree or two slope in any direction for drainage.  For anything more severe, why!

Regarding back tees, I recently saw some small circular tees (at Glenelg).  On this course, they looked the part, were effective and easy to maintain.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Come down to my club and you'll see that if you put felt on the new tees and cut six holes, you could play billiards on them.  

They were designed to be and were built flat apparently relying soley on subsurface drainage.  There are corrugated drainage pipes and vents visible on them all.  Maybe there's an overall slope (you'd think there has to be), but it is not discernable.

I agree that most older tees were built with surface drainage in mind.  Reading Flynn's quote it seems that there was a shot-making component as well which I find very interesting.  I got an email from an architect and he mentioned that they do something along the lines that Flynn indicated.

James,

If there's too much slope, I agree it can be offensive.  But a small degree or so for surface drainage is enough.  

I find it silly to watch golf on TV and listen to commentators talk about how difficult a shot it is because the ball is above/below the guys feet.  Well, on TV anyway it looks like a matter of an inch or two.  Classic ourses around Philadelphia and elsewhere have a number of canted fairways where the ball is way above or below the feet and on sidehill lies and sometimes sideways lies are combined with up and downhill lies at the same time (Rolling Green GC 9 and many Huntingdon Valley CC fairways).  Its a matter of degree (literally) and the mindset.  If you think its a part of the architecture and not get the notion of it being unfare...well that's what it is.  We're only talking 1 degree or so.

Tony,

I see your point but do no agree.  I sure feel I'm in the minority and you are in the majority though.

James,

Glad you feel that some slope (certainly not overly done) is a good thing on tees.  It sounds like that long par 3 has a tee that has settled too much.  I hope you the pendulum doesn't swing so far in the other direction that you get a laser-leveled perfect looking tee box, especially if your club is an old one.

[Tom Jefferson]

After the 1959 U.S. Open at Winged Foot, Billy Casper said one of the keys to his victory was that he looked for sloping areas on each tee so as to more easily play draws and fades.

One of my special pleasures in helping build Bandon Trails was the task of doing the finish work on all the tees and surrounds; we built in slopes of .5% to 1.25% on all the surfaces, and tilted each one to suit the particulars of each tee.  We tried to slope tees away from the walk up in most cases, and when the tee was elevated, always tipped the tee forward, to help the golfer keep the ball down and to help avoid the sense of launching a ball into space.
Most of those choices were made by C and C or between myself and Troy Russell.

Tom

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Thanks for the contribution to this thread and on some great golf courses.

Would you say the average guest at Bandon Trails or other courses where you've utilized sloping areas on tees recognize that they are sloped?  If so, what has been the reaction?  Not everyone is like Casper and sees things with such distinction and relates it to strategy, but golf is a mental and physical test.  

For those golfers that have a greater vision and see better how to use the ground for golf should have an advantage over those with less consideration.  It may help the shorter hitter to keep up with the longer ones if he can use a little slope on the tee to shape the shot for some advantage.

What is the reason for sloping tees away from the walk up?  I see your point about elevated tees and tipping them forward.  I can also see that some architects might raise the front though to enhance the launch effect for the average golfer and help him feel like he is all powerful and to help get the ball in the air.  I like your approach better...it seems more like what should be rather than what they think they want or appeal to instant gratification.

If you don't mind my asking, if you're doing any consulting on classic courses, is there some resistance to building tees that are more sympathetic to existing tees rather than laser levels and straight lines?  It might be the case that some clubs don't pay attention to these things and if the oversight is not of the highest order you end up with a patchwork of styles on the tees.  This, in my opinion, is one of the ways things just don't add up and the symphony has a few wrong notes so to speak.  These clubs don't feel like they get everything right and the experience suffers a bit for it.  You can just tell where all the details are right and the overall feeling is better whether you realize it conciously or subconciously.

[wsmorrison]

Agreed whole-heartedly!  

In German that is translated into:

Ausgemachtdiegesamtwirtschaftaufrichtig!

[PThomas]

the damn game is hard enough....I say build them as flat as possible!

[Tom Jefferson]

Wayne M.....

Thanks for responding to my comments re: tee slopes.

Do I think the average Bandon Trails guest realizes tee slopes and utilizes them in his/her play?  Frankly no.   As I look at the tee surfaces each time I play there (I am settling into the most pleasurable habit of playing Bandon Trails each Sunday night, teeing off at 5:30 or so and finishing in that beautiful evening light), those surfaces seem to me to be quiet level, & even though I helped build them, I can see in each one the slope there and remember both the mental and physical process that took place in the finishing of each tee complex.

But those .5% to 1.25% slopes are pretty subtle!  And they can look quite level, even to me and my intimate relationship with each one.  Considerable effort was directed at having the surfaces, after the choice of direction and percentage of slope was arrived at, to be even, without internal highs and lows.

But having said that, some tees and slopes were more problematic than others.....stand on the black tee on #15 and feel the slope on the left edge.....I just couldn't get the increasing fall out of it.  Conversely, Tony Russell's rough shaping on #14 was so close to perfect, that the finish work was simply a smoothing process.  Stand on them and declare which direction they drain, and my sense is that it will be a bit of a guess on most golfer's part.

Nor have I spoken to any guest about those surfaces.  So my answer would have to be a simple "no."

Your quick comment that suggested my involvement with any other course construction;  I am not a builder by profession, but rather a passionate golf course superintendent.  I am on staff here at Bandon Dunes.  I have had fantasies about moving about, building tees, but gosh, it is pretty good right here.  I was fortunate to be handed the chance to help with the tees.

We sloped many tees away from the direction of golfer walkup with the intent of minimizing the collection of stormwater runoff on the same side of the tee where the golfer enters.  

I appreciate your comment about 'raising the front for launch effect...to give the golfer the all powerful feeling...ball in air'.
We did that on hole 3... Dave Zinkand (C&C) commented that they wanted to give the golfer, possibly disappointed that they were leaving the pure dunes of #1 and #2, the chance to launch the ball deep and far, so the tees at #3 are sloped to the rear to encourage that fun.  But also sloped to the right (and away from the walkup!) so as to avoid runoff gathering to the rear and into the slope of the next tee behind it.  Also # 2, 7, 9, 12.

Hope this helps.

Tom

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

It helps a great deal.  Thank you for your willingness to share.  I hope to get out there sometime in the not too distant future and see the courses in that beautiful evening light you refer to.

Getting all the pieces, large and small, just right at a place such as  Bandon Dunes certainly adds to the experience and the lasting impressions.  This could not be accomplished without professionals such as yourself with the passion that is so evident in your posts.

I hope to see you out there someday.
Best regards,
Wayne  

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