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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« on: June 20, 2005, 09:15:27 PM »
...are posted under In My Opinion and Architecture Timeline.

Dunlop White, Michael Fay, Brad Klein and the gang at The Ross Society have developed a checklist of steps that clubs can follow in restoring their Ross course. These guidelines have been developed after a decade plus of observing the pros and cons of the ways that well intentioned clubs have undertaken restoration efforts.

Just as each club is different, there is certainly no one way to go about such a project. However, the road map provided herein certainly seems an effective one as it provides clear concise means for moving ahead while hopefully steering clubs away from approaches that have failed elsewhere.

I had some formatting issues with the outline (something about html and word format blah blah blah...) so it is entirely my fault that the headers, etc don't line up exactly right. Also, in the world format as it was sent to me, there was a checkbox after each item. I am unable to reproduce the checkboxes on the web page but nonetheless, I hope you get the idea - interested clubs can use this outline and tick off items as they go.

What do you think - would you recommend adding or deleting anything? One thing is for sure - if this had been around a decade ago, fewer clubs would have struggled through the (then) uncharted waters of restoring classic architecture.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 09:16:43 PM by Ran Morrissett »

T_MacWood

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2005, 09:43:46 PM »
That is a very comprehensive outline....very sound advice from those obviously experienced in such matters. If I was to add anything it would be to make sure the course is worthy of restoring, was it a good to very good to start. I'd guess you'd probably figure that out during phase I...and along that line, make sure your course is in fact a Ross course.

I'd also note that Ross's career was long, he worked with numerous associates, at many different sites, and because of that, his work exhibited a number of stylistic expressions (which should be preserved and if possible restored). Too many of his restorations are in a prototypical style, which is often accurate, but not always.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 09:56:43 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2005, 10:26:37 PM »
I would expect the New York Yankees fan club to be sending out guidelines to Joe Torre and Steinbrenner very soon.  I know they are waiting.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2005, 11:09:22 PM »
If I was to add anything it would be to make sure the course is worthy of restoring,

Tom, who is to make that decision ?
That's the difficult task.
And, if the course has been worked on by several architects, superintendents and green committees over the years, to which point do you restore it ?
Gulph Mills might be a good case study in a hybrid Ross restoration.  One also has to consider if the original land is available for restoration.  
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was it a good to very good to start.
Tom, likewise, who makes that decision ?
It's unlikely that any surviving members exist to determine the original course's worth.

You must also recall your anti "pure restoration" remark, wherein you proposed that all courses should be restored to their architectural "high water mark"  a mark that may result in the permanent disfiguring of Ross's original work.

And, who determines that mark ?

This is a difficult and club specific issue.

I don't think that there is any one answer.

But, I am curious, to what year would you restore GCGC ?
And why ?
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Mike Young,

I understand you comment, your concerns and annoyance with the guidelines, but, most club's are in the dark when it comes to going about restoration work.   Most club's don't know what they want, pure restoration, hybrid restoration, modernization, elimination of select alterations, etc., etc..
And, within clubs it's not uncommon for all of the above categories to be supported and/or opposed by varying factions.

Hence I think the Guidelines serve a valued purpose, a prudent starting point.

They ask that the club consider many variables that might not have occured to them before a spade is in the ground or the funding requested.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2005, 11:19:46 PM »
Pat,
Let me be very clear.  I do not support the DRS.  I have respect for several individuals that choose to be members.
Since most clubs are in the dark...hire an architect.
Since most committees go by the rule "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" it would suffice to say that perception is reality.  And the DRS has worked itself into a perception of authority on DR.
Personally I think they have no business setting guidelines for anything.  They can archive if they wish to be useful.
I am sure more support this than will speak out.  I understand that.  The DRS has never landed me a job...they have kept me from some....so it is a bridge I can burn.
I am not even sure Ross himself would have endorsed it.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

T_MacWood

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2005, 11:23:12 PM »
Pat
Regarding who to go to for guidance...I'd recommend someone with a historical background, who could judge these things objectively and in context, like Brad Klein or Geoff Shackelford or Ron Whitten or respected golf architect....as opposed to a heavy-handed politico, with little or no historical background.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2005, 11:26:00 PM »
Mike Young,

As I stated, I understood your concerns and annoyance before you posted them.

For a second, forget the Ross Society, and apply the guidelines to any golf course interested in a "restoration", whatever that term may mean to them.

I think the guidelines serve as a prudent roadmap for those about to undertake the restoration journey.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2005, 11:27:25 PM »
Pat,
I'll give you that.  It is just not the place for guidelines IMO.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2005, 11:45:20 PM »
Pat
Regarding who to go to for guidance...I'd recommend someone with a historical background, who could judge these things objectively and in context, like Brad Klein or Geoff Shackelford or Ron Whitten or respected golf architect....as opposed to a heavy-handed politico, with little or no historical background.

I suspect you have absolutely NO experience with respect to a golf club's governing structure and day to day operation.
Is that correct ?

At the great majority of clubs the great, great majority of the membership and leaders have little or no historical backround regarding the club.   Time takes its toll.
Succeeding generations of members are further and further removed from the club's architectural roots.  The connection was lost with our father's passing.

Whom, at any given golf club, would seek out the individuals you mentioned ?

Do you think the club leadership and the membership would cede the decision making power to them ?

How many clubs that you personally know of have contacted Brad, Ron and Geoff and charged them with that responsibility ?

What architects do Brad Klein, Ron Whitten and Geoff Shackelford recommmend ?

You seem to have an idealistic rather than a realistic viewpoint when it comes to this area.  As much as I'd like it to be as simple as you suggest, experience has taught me otherwise.

Just look at the issue of removing the pond at # 16 at GCGC.
What would seem like a simple matter to you was quite the contrary, and the club has elected, to date, to retain the pond.

You can get all the experts in the world to testify that the pond wasn't an Emmett or Travis feature, bring in Brad, Ron and Geoff.  In fact, most members knew this, but, look what happened when the issue was brought up for a straw vote before the membership.

The reality is that club politics influence architecture more than architecture influences club politics.

Those that don't understand that are doomed to forever pontificate from their ivory tower.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2005, 11:46:44 PM »
Pat,
I'll give you that.  It is just not the place for guidelines IMO.


Mike Young,

I'm not sure what to say about the DRS here, but I would comment on your choice of profile quotes referring to our mutual buddy "Carl".

I'll have some of those french fried potaters...the big 'uns...and, pass the mustard...mmmhmmm.. ;D
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 12:03:35 AM by Mike_Cirba »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2005, 11:49:41 PM »
I like that mustard.....ummm. hummm
And I know what Carl would say about DRS
« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 11:51:04 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Cirba

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2005, 11:56:50 PM »
I like that mustard.....ummm. hummm
And I know what Carl would say about DRS

You'd better call an ambulance...or a hearst.  ;)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2005, 11:58:13 PM »
I reckon
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2005, 01:21:52 AM »
It must also be emphasized that the DRS does not officially endorse (or condemn) any architect(s). Of course the point of the guidelines is to help clubs through a process, but that also includes hiring an architect. We're not in the business of hiring or favoring architects, we're simply trying to help clubs get through a learning curve. By the time most clubs have figured out what they are doing, they've screwed up the project, so this is just a list of proceedings to help them in their own proceedings.

I should also add that any variance from the above policy re: architects by any member of the DRS or of the board of DRS acting on behalf of the group is a violation of DRS policy.

Pat . . . couldn't agree more about the influence of politics upon architecture. Nicely stated there. This is why "purists" are condemned to irrelevance - not that they ever find out, since they rarely if ever get a chance to implement their ideas.
When people ask me if I ever prepared for what I do by studying agronomy or civil engineering, I just tell them I studied political science. They get the point.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 05:19:21 AM by Brad Klein »

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2005, 01:47:59 AM »
If I may add one small grammatical modification:
In section 1, under "Books", part D, change "Club History's" to "Club Histories".  

Attention to detail is noticed by the very people you target with this outline, and may or may not affect credibility.  

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2005, 06:44:21 AM »
Brad,
IMO Section 3, HIRING AN ARCHITECT , should be eliminated all together.  The way it is worded they are swaying unknowing committees.  I don't call all "restoration specialist" architects.  I don't think DR would have either.  I would assume he would have wanted someone that had actually designed and built their own work instead of just working on his.  And then half of what I have seen these "specialist" present is Raynor more than Ross.  I have seen resumesthat look like one has done 100 courses but when dissected they might have done a 100 bunkers.
As you know I  have the utmost respect for what you have done toward Ross.  The entity, DRS...No.  The deader he gets, the bigger he gets....
Well, I got to get back to writing my recommendations for Diet and exercise.  You know I am a big Jack Lalane nut and he is on his way back.
BK(not Burger King), i appreciate your efforts toward understanding DR.  But a society founded for the wrong reasons will never work.IMO
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 06:47:42 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

T_MacWood

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2005, 07:00:21 AM »
Pat
My only experience with restoration is assisting architercts with research....and my experience/observations at Ohio State, which is not a club per say, since the University ulitimately does what they want to do. I'm certain your political/restoration credentials are much greater (perhaps you will share them with us some day)...that is why you continually question mine whenever I comment on a restoration.

I'm not quite sure the reason for the backlash from you and Brad Klein, unless I struck a nerve. My only recommendations were as follows:

1. Before starting a restoration, make sure the course is worth restoring. Why waste money on a restoration, if a redesign is more in order? You asked how you determine that. IMO if you can't determine through your own research (that might be clue)....then go get some guidance from someone with a strong historical background...Klein, Shackelford, Whitten, etc. Did I say these historians need to make the ultimate decision or just give their expert opinion?

2. My other suggestion, dealing specificially with the Ross document, make sure the course is in fact a Ross....maybe that is where the purist comment comes from.

3. And finally, regarding the inclusion of a statement regarding Ross's stylistic variations, and the need to preserve the variations...no comment from you or Brad....does this make me an idealist and out of touch in my ivory tower?  :)

Maybe I am totally out of it, are these three suggestions irrational or out of touch with the practicallities of club politics?

I suspect restoration clubmen, architects and consultants don't care much for outsiders questioning their decisions and actions. That's the beauty of this site...a sort of critical checks and ballances, acting kind of like an independent press.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2005, 09:39:18 AM »
Tom MacWood,

You didn't hit any nerves with Brad or myself.
That statement is your way of trying to validate your erroneous beliefs.

And, it wasn't a backlash, it was a critical analysis of your theory.

I think Brad and I were critical because your theory doesn't hold water in the real world.  Espousing your theory shows a total lack of understanding with respect to the realities of restoration projects at golf/country clubs.

Let me try to address your points.

You recommended that a club seek out several individuals as the ultimate decision makers regarding the restoration of their golf course.

How much in the way of decision making power should a club grant an individual who declared that the golf course at Jasna Polana was a modern day Winged Foot ?

Perhaps one of the most misquided comparitive analyses of golf course architecture in the last 150 years.

But, you want to cede authority to this individual.

Do you understand the reality that no club will cede authority to ANY outsider ?

With respect to research, everyone agrees that it's a prudent endeavor.  What you don't understand is that the information a club seeks may not exist.  Then what ?

As an example, try to research HOW the right greenside bunker on # 17 at GCGC got chopped into four seperate bunkers, three sand and one grass.   And this only happened within the last four years.  Yet, no record of how and why it was altered exists.

What you also fail to grasp is the application of your very own theory on retaining or restoring to the "architectural high water mark".  Perhaps a club feels that an alteration done after the original architect left the building is preferable to what originally existed.  Then what ?
And, what if your expert felt otherwise?  Then what ?

You seem to feel that there's a treasure of unlimited information available to every club when that's not the case.

The same applies to determining what is and what isn't Ross.
Sometimes that's impossible to determine.  Then what ?

How do you know what is and what isn't a stylistic variation ?
Is your FIELD EYE that good ?
You labor under the false impression that voluminous documentation describing every facet of a golf course, from plans, to as builts, to modifications over the years, exists for all to view and analyze, AND, that those viewing that information will collectively come to the same conclusion.

That's where some of the reference to your ivory tower stems from.

Tom, a responsible, well informed independent press serves a valueable purpose.  I also believe in sunshine laws and public scrutiny.  But, you have to understand the specific nature of a club project, its genesis and ongoing life, as well as the people who support and oppose it.

Time and time again you've stated that you have no interest in club politics, yet it is club politics that will ultimately determine the architectural outcome.

As an outsider you can continue to be an idealist, which is akin to baying at the moon, or you can make an attempt to understand the dynamics of a club project, which affects what happens in the ground, and have some positive impact on what gets done on a project.

And, remember three things,
the right thing isn't always done.
You may have to compromise to get something positive done.
And, no good deed shall go unpunished.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 09:43:12 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2005, 10:00:57 AM »
A couple quick comments:

1) I'm a big fan of the DRS - in fact, if they'll have me, would like to participate should I be able to find the time in the future

2) Great content within, lots of good ideas and a great roadmap for pursuing a restoration

3) Tone - no offense, but the tone and presentation was not optimal. I almost felt lucky that I was allowed to read their sage advice. Would like to suggest that the document is re-written in a way that show more humility and an offering of help and suggestions, rather than dictating how the DRS believes it should be done.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 12:09:49 PM by ChipRoyce »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2005, 10:32:52 AM »

Since most clubs are in the dark...hire an architect.
 

Mike- Some could argue that the hiring of an archie, doesn't gaurantee that the lights will be turned on.

ForkaB

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2005, 10:48:19 AM »
I think that the Donald Ross Society should hire out their services to the European Union.

Those guys are in need of a Constitution and if you just substitute......

--"Rebates" for "Culltivate Membership Support"
--"Common Agricultural Policy" for "Tree Management"
--"Integrated Transportation System" for "Cart Path Plan"
--"Immigration Policy" for "Fertility Management"
--etc.

....this would make a great substitute!

Go for it guys!  Europe needs you.........

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2005, 11:11:04 AM »
Adam,
I don't know nothing about lectricity
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2005, 12:15:21 PM »
Pat's comments regarding the important role that club politics play in restoration/renovation decisions in private clubs are quite important.  Based on my personal experience as the leader in a "sympathetic renovation" of a 1921 Colt & Allison course plus numerous coversations with those in similar positions at other clubs I think it is fair to say that the amount of time spent in creating the plans for the renovation is generally exceeded by the time spent negotiating and selling the proposal to the leadership of the club and obtaining the necessary votes from the members.  Absent the willingness to spend the time and the political savvy and sheer will to get the job done, the architectural skill and planning will achieve nothing.  An unfortunate but true fact of life in dealing with private clubs.

T_MacWood

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2005, 01:06:22 PM »
Pat
Uh? I said the document was full of very sound and practical advice, and suggested two of my own thoughts on what else might be considered.

A. Before restoring a course make sure its worth restoring (and before restoring Ross, make sure the course is in fact Ross)

B. When possible preserve Ross's design variations.

You come back with Jasna Polana, the butchered 17th at GCGC and my lack of political experience, all to make the case that I'm off the mark. Wow! I take it you don't agree with those two suggestions...to each his own.

I don't believe seeking a historian's opinion when you're stumped is the same as ceding authority. I think it is possible to get an expert's opinion without making him the 'ultimate decision maker'.  

"With respect to research, everyone agrees that it's a prudent endeavor.  What you don't understand is that the information a club seeks may not exist.  Then what ?"

If you can't find the documentation of the old course, my first question would be...why restore it?

"The same applies to determining what is and what isn't Ross.
Sometimes that's impossible to determine.  Then what ?"

If you can't determine if your course is or isn't a Ross (or determine who the architect or architects might be)...you've got a problem and probably shouldn't be engaged in a restoration.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 01:29:05 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Ross Restoration Guidelines by The Ross Society...
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2005, 06:13:48 PM »

I said the document was full of very sound and practical advice, and suggested two of my own thoughts on what else might be considered.

A. Before restoring a course make sure its worth restoring (and before restoring Ross, make sure the course is in fact Ross)

B. When possible preserve Ross's design variations.
NO Tom, you said far more than that.  
In reply # 5 you recommended bringing in outsiders, and you named Ron Whitten as one of them.
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You come back with Jasna Polana,

That's right, because Ron Whitten made an architectural comparison between Jasna Polana and Winged Foot, calling Jasna Polana a modern day Winged Foot.  Anyone who has played the two golf courses understands the inherent lack of architectural judgement in that statement.

Yet, you want to recommend outsiders such as Ron, as expert, independent consultants, to golf clubs.

Do you think a faction of a membership might oppose anything that consultant has to say ?

And, what if the consultant and the architect disagree, do you get a third opinion ?
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the butchered 17th at GCGC

That's an excellent example of how a golf course was disfigured with absolutely NO trace of motive or intent, something you couldn't uncover through your research.
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and my lack of political experience,

It is the linch pin of all projects.
Yet, you arrogantly dismiss it time after time.
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all to make the case that I'm off the mark.

Wow! I take it you don't agree with those two suggestions...to each his own.

Typically, you try to blend all of your statements together and draw the conclusion that if someone disagrees with one, that they automatically default and disagree with all of them, which is not the case.
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I don't believe seeking a historian's opinion when you're stumped is the same as ceding authority.

Who said anyone was stumped ?
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I think it is possible to get an expert's opinion without making him the 'ultimate decision maker'.  

It depends on what you want to accomplish.
Just like lawyers who bring in "experts" to reinforce their position, experts can have a bias as well.

And, the dilema remains, what if the expert and the architect disagree ?
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"With respect to research, everyone agrees that it's a prudent endeavor.  What you don't understand is that the information a club seeks may not exist.  Then what ?"

If you can't find the documentation of the old course, my first question would be...why restore it?

Once again you resort to being intellectually dishonest.

There is a difference between the old course and the original course and you know it, so try being honest, or at least accurate with your references to what was stated.
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"The same applies to determining what is and what isn't Ross.
Sometimes that's impossible to determine.  Then what ?"

If you can't determine if your course is or isn't a Ross (or determine who the architect or architects might be)...you've got a problem and probably shouldn't be engaged in a restoration.

Is that the advice you'd give to Gulph Mills or Aronomink ?

Once again, from the ivory tower, you choose to see things as strictly black and white.

You just don't get it, and never will.
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