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PjW

Seashore paspalum greens
« on: June 17, 2005, 06:41:26 PM »
I am working on a new golf development project in Hawaii.  We are in the design, entitlement process and are working on getting construction documents ready to go to bid this fall/winter for a spring 2006 construction start.  During this time I have been researching grass types.  The two choices are bermuda or paspalum.  I have decided on paspalum as the grass type considering the use of  SeaIsle 2000 on fwys, tees and roughs with SeaDwarf on the greens.  Question: for those of you who have played on seashore paspalum how did you find this grass to bermuda?  Overall what is your preference based upon similar maintenance conditions?   8)

Tommy, Huck and Pete G hello, its been a few years.  

Phil Wycoff

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Seashore paspalum greens
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2005, 07:04:00 PM »
Unlike the fescues on greens thread with no future, this one on paspalum has legs.  The future is obviously paspalum due to the water quality thing.  We had a pretty long discussion a while back where several weighed in on their playing experiences on paspalum.  Perhaps you can do the seach function.  It was a pretty good discussion as I remember.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Seashore paspalum greens
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2005, 08:13:39 PM »
At The Ocean Course here on Kiawah, we have paspalum on our tees, a few of our fairways (we're in the process of converting all the fairways over to it over the next few years) and the greens (with a special strain called "OC03," short for Ocean Course 2003, that was developed specifically for our locale).  If you are interested, I can give you the phone number and/or e-mail address of our superintendent, Jeff Stone, who can give you feedback on how it has exceeded our expectations... :D

Stuart Donald

Re:Seashore paspalum greens
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2005, 08:12:51 AM »
Phil

We have 3 courses in my region with SeaIsle 2000 greens and paspalum fairways of varied type. I will offer two basic opinions:

I dislike the greens personally, largely because of the harshness or coarseness of the leaf. I played one morning where the assistant super told me the greens were running at 11. After about 9 holes, I believe they would have been back to about 8 and as the leaf stood up the ball roll was severely deflected off line and stopped dead when putting into the grain. This seems to be the norm when I have played and although could be due to a number of factors, is consistent with the feeling this grass gives when hitting from fairways of the same variety - and can be summed up with the following word - stiff.
Other examples of this include pitch shots landing off the putting surface having wicked bounces in all directions and a personal experience of a shot played in grass of over 4 inches where the ball went backwards, rebounding from the grass thatch! The most frustrating difficulty with the grass I find is chipping inconsistency caused again by the stiffness of leaf.

The other side of this discussion has to be noted and is very contrasting indeed. Almost every player of average plus handicap that has played these courses have nothing but praise for them. I put this down to their ball sitting up on top of the grass and the aesthetics achieved with such a 'brilliant green' playing surface.

I have also seen seadwarf that is the equal of any great surface at the Norman designed Parkland in Fla which runs fast and smooth on and around the greens...

The real key may lie not so much in the grass variety but in the maintenance of it. I would research directly with the supers of each course and identify the practices that achieve a playing surface that fits your ideals.

Stu




Brent Hutto

Re:Seashore paspalum greens
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2005, 08:52:35 AM »
The other side of this discussion has to be noted and is very contrasting indeed. Almost every player of average plus handicap that has played these courses have nothing but praise for them. I put this down to their ball sitting up on top of the grass and the aesthetics achieved with such a 'brilliant green' playing surface.

The real key may lie not so much in the grass variety but in the maintenance of it. I would research directly with the supers of each course and identify the practices that achieve a playing surface that fits your ideals.

I'm the poster boy for "the other side". This past Christmas I took my 20 handicap to the Ocean Course and it was one of the best playing surfaces I've ever experienced. As you say, the fairways were a real treat, aided by the fast-draining sand under then. I played 18 holes in steady rain and another 18 the next day after a total of 2+ inches of rain and never had a muddy lie nor did I have the usual problems pitching from tight, wet lies.

For putting the grass seemed quite true and allowed all the subtle double breaks in those Dye greens to really affect the ball with no apparent grain. Then again, this was in the winter so the grass wasn't growing over the course of the day. Chipping was a challenge, the grass could be grabby although as someone who plays all his rounds on Bermuda it was no big deal (I generally putt from off the greens if it's a tight lie or the grain seems to be into me).

I've read elsewhere that thatch requires constant vigilance with Paspalum so it may be that your experience is more evidence of that problem. One other note, the Paspalum at the Ocean Course was gold colored when I played. Is that its winter color or was this a different variety than the brilliant green you're describing?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Seashore paspalum greens
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2005, 09:40:31 AM »
Phil:

In five years every other course in Hawaii will most likely be converted to Paspalum, so why worry about it?

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Seashore paspalum greens
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2005, 11:34:26 PM »
i for one, like it on tees and fairways, but not on greens or roughs
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Seashore paspalum greens
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2005, 11:43:43 PM »
We have planted dwarf paspalum in Mexico and have specified it on projects in Hawaii. Look at Mauni Lani — they used to manage away paspalmu, and now they manage it "in" there greens.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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