Links designers for Brit+Ire

[Paul Kelly]

If you could get any archie (alive and working) in the world, who would you get to design a links course in Britain or Ireland today?

[Guest]

Paul,

Local membership or destination course. City course or country course. Links or parkland. Just trying to be constructive, when I say it is all about location. The obvious choices of GCA'ers is C&C and Doak. However, if you try to squeeze their $750,000 + fees into a budget for a course in the Scottish Highlands ($30-40 fees, shorter season) where you can get the land, but you just created a difficult situation to make money. Can you work the numbers a few miles from St Andrews or London Center, probably, but can you get the land and get clearance through the environmentalist ? Just read the article on the NY Times thread about Martha's Vineyard.

They have the same problems in the UK and Ireland, just maybe a few less lawyers. I realize that this site is about architecture, but great modern architecture is driven by $$ in high density areas (Shadow Creek #7 in golfweek), and great land in low density areas where there is less $$ (Pacific Dunes #2). People talk about "the vision" of the Pac Dunes owner. Well his vision was driven by the economics which was that the project could not afford a brand name designer. Thus, your parameters need to be more narrowly defined. Would Tom Doak take the Pacific Dunes job today for the money he was paid back when he took the job. No, he can now pick and choose his projects.

[Paul P]

Well, I am not soliciting a designer. I was just wondering in light of the fact that my GC has another 130 acres on its site in some wonderful duneland. It's a fantasy question, really, as it wouldnot be a big money project. It was originally built as a community non-profit project to attract tourism to the area, and I presume the same would be true of the next phase, if there deffinately is to be one. The plans could be shelved, for all I know.

They seem to be trying to raise money at the moment - they are currently giving discounts for next year's greenfees for visitors paying now.

Eddie Hackett designed the current 18 - I believe he never charged over £10 k for a project, and sometimes charged almost nothing at all. In addition, I don't knwo if the area could support two courses.

I am a bit naive, but I would imagine it would be a dream of most architects to design on such land and they would be associated with it forever. That said, I know they have to eat.

I don't know what the club's approach would be to employing an archie....

[SL_Solow]

Here we go again with anonymous posts purporting to have absolute knowledge of the motives of individuals without providing any basis for their purported insight.  While many of the economic arguments make sense, attempting to buttress those arguments by identifying them with Mike Keiser, Tom Doak, and C&C is unfair to those individuals.  When Mike Keiser was soliciting opinions about architects for the Bandon project, price was not a subject of discussion.  He was interested in building something special.  The architects mentioned can choose to speak for themselves (or ignore the question for that matter) concerning their fee structure for particular projects.  Again, I don't have any problem with someone bringing the real world of economics into our architectural discussions which often take on an "ivory tower" tone of architectural purity.  But unless one is willing to identify himself, he ought not to invoke others' names and deeds to make his point unless they are used simply as objective examples.

[Guest]

Paul,

I assume from your past post that you are talking about Carne. I have not seen it, but have heard good things. My suggestion is to get a real name. Tom Fazio would be the top of my list. He will attract the American $$ that you need. Doak is still not as popular of a name for main stream America, although he would be the best from an arch view. Fazio needs a links course in his resume, he now is looking at projects overseas, and reality is he will assign it to an associate who is very good. If it hits and he puts Carne in the Top 100 in the world, he is a hero. If it flops, he calls it his gift to Ireland and moves on. It would be hard to build a bad course on the land at Carne from what I hear about it, and Fazio can be flexible with his fees at this point in his career. Have the Chairman of the Greens Committe contact the Fazio group first. If they are interested, then have the President of your club speak to Fazio, don't let him speak to the Fazio staff.

PS. Some people on this site really are in the business, and thus the recommendations that we make can affect people's careers. When we make decisions for ourselves, we come straight out and tell people face to face. When we are asked for opinions for projects not related to us, we post anonomously, because we do not want to ruin long term relationships for projects that we have no interest in, and jeopardize existing projects. I already have enough lawyers in my life, I don't need more !!

[SL_Solow]

I appreciate the need to avoid grief in your bsns.  Privat responses could cure that problem but that is up to you.  My only objection to your prior post is that you atributed motives to individuals which may or may not be accurate.  Based on my personal knowledge, you got it wrong in at least one case.  Its a lot easier to be careless in matters of this type when you don't attach your name.  Anonymous recommendations; ok under the circumstances.  Anonymous reasoning; again ok.  Supporting those anonymous views by invoking the actions of named others without any support; sorry but no.

[Tim Weiman]

Paul:

Ireland doesn't need some big name American architect going in and building a big dollar golf course.

Irish golf is far more advanced than that and doesn't need our influence dragging them down.

I hope if Tom Fazio does work overseas it will be in places like Japan not Ireland, Scotland, England or Australia/New Zealand. Leave those areas to architects who understand local sensitivities and don't produce courses with economics that encourage or require catering to wealthy foreigners.

Ireland doesn't need another Old Head, iron gates and all.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Based on the available evidence, Kyle Phillips is your man.  Nobody, anywhere on the planet has built (in recent history) as good a links course as he did at Kingsbarn.  IMHO, of course.

[Paul P Kelly]

Interesting. I have to stress again that the situation at Carne only got me thinking about this issue. I am just an ordinary member and would not be involved in any of these decisions.

I was really wondering if you had a choice of anyone, who would you get, for wherever you were going to build. I was also thinking what an architect would sacrifice for the chance to create a truly great golf course.  

I have only seen Kingsbarns on TV, but it looks excellent and everyone is glowing in their praise.

In a slightly related matter, I was reading that Golf World... It is great to see that Eddie Hackett has many entries in the top 100 - Enniscrone, Donegal, the Island, Waterville and (a part in) Old Head. I think Carne and Connemara will eventually break into the top 100, but who knows.

On the subject of Old Head - this course is the bigest departure from what Irish golf is know for. The attitude of the owner is poor, but there's not much you can do about that. We'll see what happens over the coming months.

[GeoffreyChilds]

This is some of the fantastic land in question.  I've written about this back in the past but a believe that a world class course could be built on this land. I spoke for about an hour with Eamon Mangan about this when I was at Carne three years ago and suggested a couple of names that are popular on this board.  Carne is so isolated that I find it hard to see how a second course could be supported but Sand Hills and several other courses prove it can be done if you build something special


Here is part of the land in question

[Paul_Turner]

Is Kingsbarns a links?

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Good question, Paul!

Anybody have Robert Price's book handy?  His map of Scotland showing all the various landforms should answer this question.

Rich

[Tim Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

I still haven't seen Kingsbarn. Can you share your thoughts about the course?

Thanks.

[archie s]

Any "Archie" alive and working, don't tempt me to tell who I would really like to see work on a great piece of ground in Ireland, on the water. Wow!!!!

As to who is I would trust the most, pretty hard to knock  Mr. Coore or Mr. Doak, but let Bill Kittleman hang around and help with the bunkers!!

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tim

I made a few comments on Kingsbarns on the 2-3 threads of the same subject a few weeks ago.  Check out the crack GCA search engine to find a snippet or two.  I need to play it more, but as of now I rank it in the same league as Applebrook, Bandon Dunes, Friar's Head and Pacific Dunes--probably above the mean of those great courses.

It should be of great interest to this forum, as the linksy been-here-hundreds-of-years look was largely manufactured--with great care and skill and the creative use of outside expertise.  I think "we" on this site often put far too much value on "finding natural holes" and NOT moving earth than we do on the more commonly found challenge of moving earth on a site without "natural golf holes" in order to create great holes and a great course.  I think that Applebrook and Friar's Head (the flatland holes) are good examples of this too.

[Paul_Turner]

It would be interesting to see how one of these top American architects would design a links in Britain/Ireland?  

Would they go for the old fashioned rugged/dune bunkers, or be more in line with the current links bunkers that are usually simplish pots?  Would Pacific Dunes style bunkers go down well in GB&I, and perhaps set a trend back to that more rugged style?  

If it was the best option, would anyone design a pure out and in routing, now?

I also wonder if there are any British or Irish architects with the experience to build a truly great links?  It's a tough job in the UK, with most work being low budget projects.  The industy isn't nearly as vibrant as in the US so I think a lot of the work is on the Continent.  

[Paul Kelly]

Kyle Phillips is American, is he not. Then there's Palmer/Sealy at Tralee and Jones at Ballybunion Cashen. There are probably more I'm forgetting, but there are links in these lands designed by American architects...

[Tpm Doak]

Looks like we'll get to throw our two cents into this discussion.  Both Bill Coore and I have looked at a site for 36 links holes in Ireland, along with Donald Steel.  At least one of us will get to build something there someday ... and it's a great site.  (Henry Longhurst wrote fifty years ago that it would be the best site for a golf course ever, but he hadn't been to Oregon.)

Don't ask me more right now.  Ask again after the New Year, and hopefully I can tell you something.

As for Guest, he doesn't know my fee structure very well, or what kind of deals we are willing to cut in order to work with the very best sites.  I've got to keep my crew happy, and their standards these days are very high indeed.

[Paul P Kelly]

Tom

Best of luck with your tender. Yourself or Donald Steel would be well qualified to build it and I'm sure we'll have something very exciting to play within the next number of years.

Paul

[GeoffreyChilds]

Tom Doak

Have you seen the site at Carne and would you think that the land is actually TOO severe to build a great golf course?

The photo I posted is pretty typical of the site.  The sand dunes and blowouts are huge.

[RossFanDan]

Paul,

I personally have liked the few works of Donald Steele. He is a Scot and has designed a few clubs in the states but mostly in Europe and I believe maybe in SA.  Both Carnegie Abbey Club near Newport RI and Cherokee Plantation in Charleston SC have held Shell's events and he has built a new course called Vineyard Golf Club on Martha's Vineyard that from what I hear is supposed to be his best work in the states so far.  

Dan Lockhart

[Paul Kelly]

Dan

I have seen the changes he made at Enniscrone and been very impressed. They are a great addition to the course.

I can't wait to hear where these 36 holes are going to be. Very exciting.


Paul

[Tom Doak]

Geoffrey:

I do know the land you're talking about at Carne, but did not see enough to tell you if it's too severe.  It was rainy with 40 mph winds when we played the other course, and I thought that the land it was built on WAS too severe -- I wondered why they didn't borrow some of the land over the fence.  (Surely it wasn't very expensive?)

[Roger]

Yes, the finishing holes are hilly alright. If you keep it straight, it isn't as hilly, however. There are a lot of fall-offs when you go off line. They could do with some kind of land bridge on the 18th, but it would be a bit unnatural.

The area has one of the largest stretches of linksland I've ever seen - some of it quite flat but very rolling and the rest with gigantic dunes.

I will try to get Paul to post some pictures.

[ddeschle]

Hi, I'm new on this website, but I was just wondering if anyone here has any better ideas than me for becoming a golf course designer.  I recently graduated from the U of I with a landscape architecture degree and did an internship last summer with Robert Trent Jones II in CA.  But now, it seems nearly impossible to get anyone to hire me.  Even RTJII is weary of having another intern program this year.  Is there any more schooling that I can go do?  Thanks,

Derek Deschler