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Yannick Pilon

Best golf courses in Quebec?
« on: June 14, 2005, 09:25:11 PM »
I have read on this website that Quebec is a design wasteland.  While I can't say that this province is oozing with great courses, I can think of a few courses that are decent tracks worth playing.

According to the essay Canada's Top Golf Courses by Ian Andrew, Ben Cowan-Dewar, Jeff Mingay and Robert Thompson, published on this website in February, there is not one golf course in Quebec worthy of a spot on their top 25 courses in Canada, except maybe for Mount Bruno G & CC which got an honorary mention....

So this brings me to my question.  What are the top courses in Quebec?  Here are a few suggestions to get the discussion going: (There might be other ones that I am forgetting here....)

Old, Private Favorites:
Royal Montreal (Blue Course)
Mount Bruno
Laval-sur-le-Lac
Pinegrove
Royal Quebec
Royal Ottawa

Old Classics:
Montebello
Carling Lake
Cedarbrook

Newer Resort Courses:
Le Geant
Le Diable
Le Maitre
Manoir Richelieu (the original is now, I am afraid, extinct...)

High-End Public Courses:
Ile de Montreal (South Course)
Le Challenger
The Falcon
Fontainebleau
Quatre Domaines (Course no. 2)

Not that I think they are all worthy of being on any top 10 lists, but they are the ones that seems to be the most popular around here right now....

So, what are your picks, and why?
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Matt Kardash

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2005, 09:39:38 PM »
I would also add Le Blainviller(royal).....it's got some very good holes....and the stretch from 9 through 11 might be the best 3 hole stretch in Quebec
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Philippe Binette

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2005, 08:11:19 AM »
Yannick,

the sad thing is that this list pretty much sums it all...

After the names you've put up there, there not a lot left...

And none of those course would be close to make it into the top 20 of the Philadelphia area.

About Cedarbrook, a good course that should require a serious chainsaw attack. But being a Audubon certified course, I don't know if that would ever happen...

Hillsdale is pretty good too

Ben Cowan-Dewar

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2005, 11:23:36 AM »
Royal Montreal Red is very enjoyable.

I have not seen Royal Quebec, but it is on my short list of courses I would like to see.

Royal Ottawa is solid and could use some TLC to be great.

Of the new stuff, i have not seen Ruddy's course, but I liked Le Geant, though it is a little severe at times. Le Diable did nothing for me and is bewildering to me as to how it is recognized as highly.

Ian Andrew

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2005, 12:04:11 PM »
The group of four lacked the experience (limited visits to Montreal courses) with Quebec Golf to rank the courses. I'll comment on what I have seen:

Royal Montreal (Blue Course) has been completely redone by Rees Jones so it's a moote point. The Wilson course offered very little inspiration to me personally. Land is very average regardless. Red course is better than Blue.

Mount Bruno, really nice land, great setting with very average architecture. Some great holes with far too many ordinary holes to be great. Worth playing for the setting and ambiance
 
Laval-sur-le-Lac Green is well worth playing and makes my top 25. Some of the better architecture in places with a few too many average holes to be inthe elite.

Pinegrove: My next visit will take me there, many think it is one of the best.

Royal Ottawa: many excellent holes and well worth playing. The old fashioned architecture is like stepping back in time. With the bunkers returned to Bendelow's trenches as opposed to Watson sprawling disastewrs this club could be really great.

Kanawaki has some of the best holes in Montreal and should be played just to play 9 and 18 alone. Very good course with the flat land holes at the bridge being the weakness.

Beaconsfield may be the best course on the island. The routing of the back nine is outstanding with a number of first class holes. Weaknesses on the front hold the course back and conditioning remains a constant weakness (for some reason).

Elm Ridge is quite good with the North being the stronger of the two. Courses are playable and enjoyable, but offer little in the way of great holes.

Islesmere is the sleeper. The course has a series of outstanding holes throughout a real soilid tract. The weakness is the overgrowth of trees (common Laval problem ;))

There are a lot of really solid courses that would appear in mass from 26 to 50; but the province seems to lack the standout that is much better. Again, I have not seen much outside of 1 hour from Montreal.

Jeff_Mingay

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2005, 01:04:14 PM »
I agree with Ian and Ben, re: Royal Ottawa. If the club reclaimed some of the wonderfully old-fashion character and quirk that's out there on the ground, Royal Ottawa would be one of the neatest places for golf in Canada.
jeffmingay.com

Matt Kardash

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2005, 01:29:34 PM »
ian,
i've played pinegrove a few times....basically the course is in two pieces...the holes down in the river-valley behind the clubhouse are interesting....the ones on the flat ground in front of the clubhouse(which is most of the course) are not that interesting
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Matthew MacKay

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2005, 01:36:28 PM »
Regardless of what Royal Ottawa does, I don't think it approaches any of the elite courses in Canada.  It's a shame so much work was done to Ottawa Hunt because it has excellent bones.

How does Royal Ottawa compare to the Montreal area clubs?

Ben Cowan-Dewar

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2005, 01:44:48 PM »
Ian,
I have played former Manoir Richilieu, all the Tremblant courses, RO, RM (both), Montebello, etc. So I disagree that we necessarily lacked the experience. Finn said he has yet to play a truly great course in Quebec and he has played all of them, so that lowers my hopes for Royal Quebec, but he has been wrong too.

Do you really think any can compete with our top 25? RM Red is probably the best chance to beat something like Essex, but...

Matt,
Ottawa Hunt is in Ontario  ;) Lord knows we do not need to beat the Quebecois over the head with mediocre Ontario layouts...

Jeff_Mingay

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2005, 01:49:37 PM »
Hey Ben,

What about that ultra private Demarais estate course that McBroom designed? I know very few get to play it, but have you received any reports?

Just curious, while we're on the subject of golf in Quebec...
jeffmingay.com

Ben Cowan-Dewar

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2005, 02:18:55 PM »
Jeff,
Domaine Laforest - Tom says it is great and the guy that built it loves it, but other than that...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 02:49:41 PM by Ben_Dewar »

Jason Mandel

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2005, 02:54:21 PM »
A friend of mine was up in Montreal for a bachelor party a few weeks ago and played what he said was a relatively new Gil Hanse course up there.  He had a lot of good things to say about the course, can anyone help me out here?

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

John Foley

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2005, 03:23:53 PM »
Ben,

i enjoyed La Diable and thought it offereed challenge and playability for the resort/higher HDCP players. Did not see La Geant or La Maitre or the Grey Rocks courses. What was the concerns?
Integrity in the moment of choice

Philippe Binette

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2005, 03:39:13 PM »
There's no Gil Hanse course near Montreal, that I know of...

Your friend might have been talking about Ile de Montreal by Pat Ruddy...

That might the only thing that could look a bit like but not much Gil Hanse...

Jason Mandel

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2005, 03:57:05 PM »
Phillippe,

I believe it was Quatre Domaines(only because I remember him telling me that in english it was 4 something) anyway, he is not a big architecture guy but told me that the course was really nice.

I didn't think gil designed anything up that way yet, so who was it, and how is it?

Thanks
Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Yannick Pilon

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2005, 04:38:23 PM »
Jason,

Quatre Domaines is a 36 hole course designed by Graham Cooke & Associates, who I work for....

It's a popular public course about 30 minutes north-east of Montreal along Highway 15. Both courses are set amongst huge towering pines.  The first one was built on a shoestring budget and still gave a decent result.  The second one is more high profile in terms of public golf and it has a nicer feel and a cleaner, more defined look. But a Gil Hanse course it isn't! It must be a gazillions miles away from the approach used by Gil Hanse to design a course....

www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Gerry B

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2005, 08:54:34 PM »
kanawaki has some fun holes - plus they filmed the soon to be released movie"the greatest game ever played" there. Old school at its best.The par 3  - 9th is a gem.

Andrew Cunningham

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2005, 09:39:46 PM »
Whether or not the best courses in Quebec would make anybody’s Top 25 in Canada certainly should not reflect negatively upon the excellence quality of golf experiences this province has to offer.  Even though this forum is in the strictest sense only about GCA, I think we tend to overly criticize and perhaps unfairly compare all courses to a standard that frankly only exists in most of our dreams.  

While the Top 20 in Quebec may not equal the Top 20 in Pennsylvania (it certainly equals the Top 20 in Philadelphia), the courses previously mentioned above are ALL worth playing.  Maybe not worth spending your life savings on (Pebble, Shadow, Trump, etc.), but certainly worth planning a trip for.  I think playing Montebello (definitely stay at there!), Le Geant, Le Diable, and Le Maitre in Mont Tremblant would rank as a Top 5 golf trip in Canada.  Let’s see what Ben thinks.

Who has played Golf Saint Raphael and what did you think?  Also, where is Neil Haworth the architect from?

Ian Andrew

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2005, 10:01:25 PM »
Andrew,

People on here who have not travelled to Canada to play golf are looking to find out what is a must see, as opposed to what is nice. The list we produced was based upon our constant discussion of how many of the Cnaadian courses are truly worth seeking out for someone outside of Canada. We came to the conclusion that the list was short.

In a nutshell there is not one course in Quebec worth making a special trip to play. While this sounds harsh, there are many great courses worth playing if you find yourself in that area. Doak made a great point about this in the Confidential guide. There is too much great golf to waste valuable money seeking out average courses.

I really like Royal Ottawa, it has all the quirks that really get me going (like Lookout Point), but I would not recommend it to others. I have never liked Royal Montreal and thought the architecture was extreely dull, but the course remains highly praised due to its difficulty.

The only reason we offer opinions is to try let others know what is worth seeking out, it's certainly not because we think we know more about what makes a great course; because that is too individually subjective to be measured (although they try).


"A friend of mine was up in Montreal for a bachelor party a few weeks ago "

Jason,

Now, Montreal would be a perfect 10 on the Doak Scale in this area.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 10:03:46 PM by Ian Andrew »

Yannick Pilon

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2005, 06:39:01 AM »
Andrew C.

I was thinking of playing the new course at St-Raphael but was shocked to see they were charging $150 to play!

Around Montreal, that type of pricing is unheard of...  Up until today, the highest green fee in the Montreal area was the Challenger at $98.  I think they have about 25,000 rounds per year including all the corporate outings but they like it that way and they are owned and supported by Bombardier, a huge company here in Quebec....

So to get back to St-Raphael, I hope it is good enough to support that green fee price! I heard it was a good course but extremely tight in some areas due to huge environmental constraints they had to deal with during construction....

As for Neil Haworth, I believe he is from Montreal, originally....  He started his career with Graham Cooke before joining Robin Nelson to create the company Nelson & Haworth which is now officially based in Asia.  I believe Neil himself is now based in Shangai, but he also has an office in Montreal, according to his website.
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Yannick Pilon

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2005, 06:44:09 AM »
Andrew,

Its not that I want to contradict you or anything....  But frankly, I think Montreal would be a PERFECT 12 on the Doak scale for Bachelor parties....
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Jason Mandel

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2005, 09:57:44 AM »

While the Top 20 in Quebec may not equal the Top 20 in Pennsylvania (it certainly equals the Top 20 in Philadelphia),


Andrew,

I have never played golf in Quebec, but judging from that quote that must mean the golf in Quebec is pretty damm good.  But that sort of contradicts what Ian says about the golf in Qubec, as he stated he doesn't think their are any MUST plays.

If you look at Philadelphia, there are at least 2 MUST plays, and a host of others that if you were in town for a month you wouldn't get bored from.

As far a bachelor party goes, well, I have to admit from everything I hear you guys up north have us covered ;)

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Matthew MacKay

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2005, 10:14:47 AM »
I haven't played anything in the Phildelphia area but I'll hazard to guess that its top 20 would eclipse Quebec's top 20.  I bet Ian or Ben could chime in on this.  Phili certainly has some must plays, something QC apparently lacks, although I can't say for myself having never played in QC.

Jeff_Mingay

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2005, 10:33:10 AM »
The depth of outstanding golf courses in the Philadelphia area is deeper than most cities in the world, besides perhaps London and New York.

Quebec's top-20 can't shake a stick at Philly's top-20. With all due respect, comparing the top-10 is laughable.
jeffmingay.com

Philippe Binette

Re:Best golf courses in Quebec?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2005, 01:12:35 PM »
I'm with you Jeff on that...

Best example: the number 2 course at Stonewall Golf Links (Doak) is probably not in Philadelphia top 20...

and In my Humble Opinion, it would be the best course in Quebec by... let's be polite... miles

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