[Pete Buczkowski]

For my money the most exciting and fun holes on the Quarry course are the short and medium-short par 4s: 6, 9, 10, and 13.  Their placement in the round is brilliant – even if the player is off to a bad start, these holes will help him refocus for the final stretch.  I left them off my initial photo tour since they each deserve more attention than a few sentences.  

Hole 6 – 369/346/313/196




The tee shot on the sixth is the only uphill tee shot of the day, with a semi-blind right side.  The valley off the tee is intimidating to view but easy to carry (~140 from the middle tees), giving the high handicapper a shot in the arm if he clears the quarry.  The left side is definitely favorable for visibility and the angle into the very wide and deep green that angles from front left to back right.  However, missing the fairway left is absolutely dead.  The fairway is widest at 120 yards from the green and narrows to a neck at about 90 yards out.  Short and right of the green are moguls and deep grass, and the extreme right side of the fairway is completely blind to the green.

View from the left side of the fairway:




From the center - note that the green contours come more into play from this angle and the extreme right portion of the green is not visible.  If the player is on line to this flag but short, the ball will collect to the front of the green.




View from just off the fairway in the right rough (where’s the green?):




The green contouring is spectacular.  The dip in the front center makes the player think on his approach shot.  The pin in these photos is just behind the major dip in the green, forcing the player to hit a perfect distance or aim left or right of the pin.  The front left pin is the most accessible.  Balls will feed off the left portion of the green and funnel to the right, so the player can play around the hazards in front of the green.  However, any pin right will require a very precise shot, and the upper right corner is a brutal pin placement (number 5 on the pin sheet).  Pin placement alone can make this hole play at least a shot harder.

The 6th green from short left – what fun that back right hole location would be!

The 6th green from behind on the back right

[Pete Buczkowski]

Hole 9 – 377/353/325/249

After a stout par 3 and very long par 4, the player is faced with another medium-short two-shotter.  The hole most reminiscent of Tobacco Road, the tee shot is played through a notch in a ridge.  The right side is much more open than appears off the tee – there is a lot of fairway to the right of the trees - but bailing out to the right will lead to a very difficult second.  

Tee shot on #9

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The fairway is the most undulating on the course, which can only be partially determined from the photo below, taken from the ladies’ tee.  



Clearly the left side of the fairway…



…is preferable to the right side

The timid tee shot only offers a view of the left side of the green

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The farway contouring is evident in the last photo.  How can you fade a short iron from that lie? (on purpose, that is... )

[Pete Buczkowski]

Hole 10 – 362/347/305/233

The player is faced with a definitive choice on the tenth tee – do I risk the water carry to get a short pitch and a better angle to the green or do I lay up to the right?  The carry to the left fairway is 261 from the tips, 243 from the blues and 205 from the right.  



A unique aspect of the hole is that the fairway is extremely wide if the player can make the carry with the driver…it may be 100 yards wide just beyond the pond.  The hole is slightly downhill as well and the carry doesn’t look very far due to the reeds, so the better player is definitely tempted to take the driver.

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View from the ladies’ tee – notice the fairway width beyond the pond.  The donut-shaped bunker is different from the rest of the course's bunkering

The green angles from front left to back right, so the approach from the left can be run up while the approach from the right is all carry over an intimidating large bunker.  In fact since the ground is firm it is not hard to comprehend well-struck drives running onto the green.

View from short left of green beyond pond - note how the contouring favors a runup shot to the back right

 

[Pete Buczkowski]

Hole 13 – 323/296/275/239

The 13th is quite possibly the best short par 4 of modern design.  I favor it over Cuscowilla #5 and WW Pine Barrens #15 since every player has options off the tee, not just the long hitter.  By my count there are 6 options for a good player and at least 3 for a high handicapper.  My wife even chose 2 different plays off the tee during our 2 rounds.  The view from the tee, with the 6 tee options highlighted, with increasing difficulty 1-6:



Option 1:  Layup short of the bunker.  Although many might not consider this option, my guess is it is the best option in the long run for a mid-handicapper.  The bunker is 190 from the tee, so a mid-iron layup off the tee leaves a 110-120 yard approach.  The caveat is that the ball is below the players feet for the uphill shot, and the green is semi-blind due to the bunker face.

View from short of the centerline bunker

Option 2:  Hit to the right fairway.  This is the option that most players will take and is the most obvious (and safe) off the tee, but the approach is not easy.  The green is completely blind, and the fairway angles in, so a drive can go through the fairway into the steep bank fronting the green.  One playing partner took 4 shots to escape from this area.  

View from the right side of the fairway

Option 3:  Hit to the upper left fairway.  From here the shot is only a sand wedge, and the green is entirely visible.  However, the fairway is pretty narrow so its possibly the most difficult position to obtain.  For those confident in their 200-220 clubs, this is the best option.

View from the upper left

Option 4:  Hit to the lower left fairway.  This option is obscured by the bunker from the tee, but is visible from the previous picture.  The benefit is a very short shot, and a nice angle to the right pin where the player can use the backboards.  However, the 40 yard shot to this pin placement is exceedingly difficult, since it is entirely blind and there is very little green to work with.  



Option 5:  Carry centerline bunker.  This option allows the player some room off the tee and offers a partial view of the green for his pitch.  However, this tee shot brings the steep bank fronting the green into play off the tee, but if executed correctly, removes it from consideration on the second shot.  I tried this option during my second round and found it very nice, made favorable by the back center hole location for this round (note different flag in this picture):



Option 6:  Go for the green.  This is an all-or-nothing proposition.  The ball can get lost in the bank in front of the green, and the green is very shallow, so it is a very risky proposition.  However, the slopes behind the green should hold a drive from going too far over the green.

Note the contours of this green – a fitting end to a modern classic.  Shots long right at the most shallow portion will feed back to the green, while shots hit long left will find a lower chipping area.  It is a combination of Dell and Punchbowl with a lot of internal contouring.

[Dan Kelly]

Pete -- Great pictures, terrific descriptions.

The second time I played the Quarry, I chose option No. 7
on 13: a 3-iron right into the center bunker. This is the
option of choice for those of us who relish near-impossible recoveries.

Speaking of which: Left of 6 isn't QUITE dead -- as I proved to myself
in that round. Managed to yank a tee shot left into the rock piles, find it,
and hit it back into the fairway without breaking a wrist or a golf club.
But, again, it's not the option of charm.

Seriously now: I think there is one more option on 13 that you didn't enumerate:
a drive safely long and left of the center bunker -- leaving you with a short, at least
semi-blind wedge. The last time I was up there, I noticed, walking off the green,
that they were maintaining that area as light rough, easily played from.
I think if I were in charge at the Quarry, I'd let the grass grow there, to
keep the bunker from being irrelevant to those who aren't quite long enough
off the tee to drive the green. If the pin were down on the right side, I think
I'd go for the long-left play, if the grass isn't allowed to grow.

[Jason Topp]

Great job Pete.  The 6th is my favorite of the bunch because of the differing options all dictated by the countours and surrounds of the green.  I have played it to the back right pin and it is a really difficult decision to decide to go after it.  The dip in front of the green makes pin positions near it a real tough decision.

The 13th is also a really fun hole.  For me, driver is never a realistic option because of the penal nature of that bank.  I doubt many are tempted to go that route.  I wonder if it would be improved if the fairway up the bank were widened to a width that would be narrow, but still wide enough so that a person could reasonably decide that they could hit it if the ball did not carry far enough.

[Dan Kelly]

As Dan pointed out, I believe that the #4, long left fairway option on #13, is new this year. Previously, the rough over the hill to the left of the bunker was nearly parallel with the left edge of the central pot bunker all the way to the guardian fronting hill. It made distance control while trying to hit the left plateau more critical.

I'm not talking about No. 4. I'm talking about an area past the #3 on the #3 line -- taking the bunker seriously out of play.

[ed_getka]

Nice job Pete. I look forward to getting out there next year.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Dan,

Sorry for the confusion...I think we are all talking about option #4, but there is nowhere to put it on the tee shot photo since its totally blind.  It is where the player is pitching from in the option #3 photo.  You cannot go too far left since the fairway isn't as wide down below as it is up above.  I view option #3 as the entire left upper fairway, no matter which line you take...that fairway is narrow enough!  The line for the lower left fairway is between the 3 and 4 on the picture.  Note tha shot this guy had to the right pin (pic 4) - its a really tough pitch to the left pin!

That centerline bunker is a real penalty, and influences every option except #1 (and #6).  I don't know what to think about the center opening to the green...its so steep that it would need to be flown anyways.  Maybe Jeff will chime in on his thoughts about driving that green.  Quite frankly I think its too shallow to risk, but the way these guys hit their 3 woods now (high and soft), it might be an option for the professional, but pretty stupid for mere mortals.

[Mike_Cirba]

I guess those aren't fairly symmetrical mounds and modern shaping lining those fairways or behind those greens?  

Once again, this is an aesthetic comment only.  I have not played the course.

That being said, there seems to be a lot of really good stuff going on and I feel that the overshaping comes off incongruously like needless frills on a beautiful dress.  Their main purpose seems to be containment and framing.

Anyone not directly affiliated with the course, or not part of a family affiliated with the course, can certainly feel free to challenge my impressions.    

[Mike_Cirba]

Actually, those folks associated with the course can feel free to challenge my observations as well, but in the interest of fairness and full disclosure, it would be appreciated if they could indentify themselves as such in this forum.  

[Pete Buczkowski]

Mike:

I am not in any way affiliated with the course, other than I went out of my way to play the courses in the area.  I hear your point about the framing and shaping around the greens but personally I don't see it as a detriment to the course.  I thought that Jeff had addressed that issue in the previous thread...the intent of this thread was to detail some of the strategy around the shorter par 4s at the course.  There are certainly holes that don't have this mounding behind the greens - in actuality most of the time these mounds are far enough away that they don't influence play, and are definitely farther than appears in the pictures.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Pete,

My apologies for carrying over a conversation from the earlier thread.  I certainly did not mean to hijack the thrust of your post and I appreciate that you played and enjoyed Giant's Ridge as just someone who enjoys good golf course architecture.

I also appreciated Jeff's detailed reply and told him so.  Afterwards, the entire thrust of my questions and impressions was put into question by someone who is closely affiliated with the course, yet tries to come off here as an impartial observer.  

I had no problem with his comments or criticisms of what I wrote but he should at least identify himself as someone with a horse in this race.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pete,

Once again, thanks for the pictures and postivie analysis!

While Mike Cirba obsesses over what wasn't unnatural in the buidling of the Quarry, I will point out a few more things that were.....

On 6, the steep banks and sand in front of the tee were left as is, with me finally cutting down the top of the bank for fw visibility.  Those steep banks were partially covered with mature pines on the right, and I had to clear a few to keep the fw on the high ridge.  I built the catwalk to the fw for walkers, (although I have seen carts drive it!)_ since the path went off in the woods to the right.

The cat walk to the green, deep grass bunkers, etc were all left by USX with minimal shaping required.  The last lobe of the green in the back right was a last minute add.  My only regret is that perhaps one of the short fours should have had a small green, and this was a candidate I considered.

On 9, the narrow gap short of the green was an entry road. The fat part of the fw, a former screening plant, with asphalt base still intact.  We added fill to raise the fw 3 feet to get the irrigation lines in.  The shaping there, like many of the mounds Mike C doesn't like, was the work of one shaper given a bit of freedome. I do like the contour rolls here, though.  We did gouge out the left side of the green to get a semi blind pin position that might make a right side play worth it.

The gash on 9 tee was cut in, pushing the dirt to the right to balance the heights of the chute.  The left was left as was.  In an early post on GCA, I asked if I should leave it, creating a blind tee shot like 11 at RCD.  I opted against, and the hole is better for it, although I still wonder in an intentionally created pop up tee shot to clear a close ridge isn't a viable strategy once again.

On 10, that pond was a rr car cleanout area, complete with trestle over the pond, when I got there.  The bank behind the green was actually built by the county. The Quarrys last pre golf use was to get sand for winter sanding of the roads.

13 didn't show anything like that on the topo.  I got lost in there on an early site walk, as I crested far more ridges than the topo showed.  In a great use of technolgy, my associates email pictures back after tellling me it was much, much different than the plans showed.

I just got off the plane for mutual Quary/Wilderness at Fortune Bay press day.  I had fun playing the courses, and so did most people.  Wondering if Dan or other MSP residents caught me on radio again on Sunday morning with Pat Reuse?

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

I'm really not that obsessed and perhaps I'm putting too fine a point on it.  

However, one of the great things about this website is that it's the only real forum that I know of where real in-depth analysis, discussion, and criticism of golf course architecture and courses takes place.  Virtually everything else out there is marketing crap where words like "genius", "brilliant", "stunning", etc., are tossed around like so many sobriquets of superflous superlatives as to become silly.

I love it when people like yourself who are in the industry come here and participate and you add immense value and knowledge.  Plus, you come here as Jeff Brauer- course architect, and we know and understand your perspective.

However, when others come here posing as just anonymous, interested, objective observers, and then post pollyannishly about how great and wonderful a course is that they have a vested interest in the success of, then we risk becoming one of those sites where it's all fluff and no fight, and frankly, I think you'd be disappointed in us if we just sang your praises.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Jeff,

Thanks for adding your insight to the thread!  I was going to put some of your construction observations in the thread (from Cybergolf) but I got lazy.  Everyone interested in this course, or with an interest in the evolution of course construction, should read those articles - thanks for sharing them.  

BTW there was one hole in particular that my wife really disliked on the Quarry...I wonder if you could guess which one.  

I plan on posting some photos and analysis of the Wilderness late next week (got to wait for all this PGA tour talk to slow down ).  Unlike the Quarry, that course is relatively unknown on this site; I look forward to writing it and hearing your thoughts.

[RJ_Daley]

Pete, while I didn't see as much of Tobacco Road in your first post (other than the par 5s bold turns) I can certainly see your point in these other 4 holes.  Particularly #9 and 13 and the green on 6.  9 looks something like a reversed 16 at Tobacco Road on the approach.  These are outstanding in photo appearance, and I am quite confident they play even more thrilling.

While I lean more towards Mike Cirba's impressions from photos in your first post on the idea of too many framed with obvious shaped mounding greensites, these other holes do have my juices flowing. Even what little is mounded and framed out to be tied-in on these other holes, works for me.

[tonyt]

Pete,

Thank you heaps for this. Great post and series, and I loved seeing #13 again I think about a year after those earlier photos of the same hole when Jeff spoke at length about it.

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