JB McGovern

[T_MacWood]

There has been a lot of bad mouthing of McGovern of late...is it warrented? Was he a man with a poor reputation?

[Kyle Harris]

McGovern's attitude toward certain golf courses was questionable.

He seemed willing to redesign courses in order to make changes, instead of actually improving the course. Seeing his proposed changes to Huntingdon Valley kinda shows that, as he trades off holes like 4, 5 and 8, 9 to make his own golf holes, that while not bad, aren't much improvements either.

For example, turning 8 into a longer par 4 by moving the green to the present location of the ninth tee, and then moving that ninth tee, to me, isn't worth destorying an awesome ninth hole and a good eighth.

[T_MacWood]

Kyle
When did he make his recommendations at HV? Other than his questional recommendations at HV...where else did he run a foul in your view?

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

I believe the revisions were in the late 40s, and the club built a few new tee boxes from them, but thats it.

As for running afoul of McGovern on my end it's only in passiveness in my readings on Ross and Flynn.

[T_MacWood]

"As for running afoul of McGovern on my end it's only in passiveness in my readings on Ross and Flynn."

I don't follow you. Please translate.

[Kyle Harris]

Sorry Tom,

I don't have any empirical data other than the HVGC revisions to follow up my claim. However, in what I've read of Ross, and what I've read of Flynn, there isn't much to McGovern's architectural contributions to golf.

It's late, and I just took a two hour final...  

[Brad Klein]

This has to be one of the weirder, most unfounded inquires of a thread I have ever seen. Ross kept McGovern under his employ for 28+ years, even let McG drive him to the last course they ever did together, Raleigh CC. What, because he was incompetent, couldn't read a topo map, and was furtively undercutting original design plans?

I must be missing something here. MacWood tosses out some bait recklessly and finds a fish desperate enough to go for it. Where's any evidence, common sense, or simply a case to be made?

[T_MacWood]

Brad
See page 2 of 'Restoration - many that slip through...' thread. TE feels pretty strongly that McGovern's reputation was poor (based upon some second-hand info)...I don't see that way. IMO everything I know points the opposite direction....I'd like to put this McGovern bashing to rest once and for all, thus this thread.

[wsmorrison]

To be honest, Tom, you mentioned that one reason that Flynn may have disliked McGovern is that they were rivals.  I stated that in my opinion they were far from rivals and Flynn simply didn't like him or the work of his that he'd seen.  Tom Paul concurred.

Now, it is clear that McGovern worked for Ross for nearly three decades and on a lot of projects.  But the issue I reffered to was McGovern really that talented an architect that he would be considered a rival architect to Flynn or his contemporaries.  I think not.  He was an assistant to Ross and it seems (I am admittedly not an expert) that the courses Ross did not visit (designed by topo) or spent little time on represent a large percentage of the body of his work and also a statistically higher proportion of his less than average work.  If this is so, can't we conclude that his assistants were not so talented?  

If those of you who know which courses McGovern played an important role in would characterize the architectural merits highly, then I would think differently.  Certainly the work he did in Philadelphia, where he lived, is poor in quality.  I think this way as do most of the people that know his work here.  In my mind, this cannot be ignored.  

I don't think anyone is trashing his reputation as a person (other than Flynn) since none of us knew him or know people that did.  But is architectural skills in Philadelphia, if they can speak for his talents, don't do so with much aplomb.

[T_MacWood]

"Around these parts (where McGovern lived) history has pretty much shown that J.B. McGovern was not much respected much less famous in any way.  He built one course here and it's never been considered very good.

He may've taken liberties with Ross's bunkering at Aronimink after they were built seeing as he was a member of Aronimink and according to Flynn's daughter who we asked if she was aware of anyone Flynn did not like only said one person--J.B. McGovern. When we asked her if she knew why she only said her father felt he was a poor architect.

So what is so famous about Ross/McGovern, in your opinion? Perhaps just another way of you trying to defend this indefensible opinion of yours about Aronimink's bunkering style." ~~TE Paul

Wayne
Most would agree that Ross was one of the giants of golf architecture. I can understand why his rivals may dislike his top associate or resent his top assistant, who was local, but from every thing I've seen, Ross/McGovern produced excellent work. To say he was a poor architect based upon one project among many (that was completed after McGovern's death by the way, and after Flynn's death too) and based upon a sixty or seventy year old recollection of a child or teenager is out of line IMO.

Give credit where credit is due. The man was a hell of an assistant, and built large number of very good to great golf courses for Ross.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom,

Unfortunately I can't help your cause. I don't know anything about the man or his work with other architects, but I do know what I believe is his only original, Overbrook GC. My parents were house members at Overbrook, I played many high school matches at Overbrook and I still have a bunch of friends at Overbrook. It traditionally has one of the strongest mens and womens golf teams in the GAP, the member guest is legendary, and the membership has been know to enjoy a cocktail or two after a round of golf. Kelly Moran has done some small changes there, and they just re-opened the course with a number of trees taken out, and I believe the course has been re-grassed this past season, so I have not seen the new Overbrook.

Maybe I am missing out a couple of other things nice to say till I get to the point, which is, Overbrook has one of the worst routings that I have ever played. The back nine has some severe property, but the front nine actually is quite nice in terms of land. I honestly can't think of what he was thinking. At the very least, the first four-five holes should be played backwards due to fairways that slope the wrong way. It is a small property, but he left an entire corner untouched up near the 6th hole. If you look over the history of my post here at GCA, I rarely jump on a negative thread.

PS. GAP = Golf Association of Philadelphia for my friend in Maine.

[T_MacWood]

Mike
Is the routing of Overbrook McGovern's? I've read the course history on the GAP site, and the course appears to have had a long and checkered history.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne
Most would agree that Ross was one of the giants of golf architecture. I can understand why his rivals may dislike his top associate or resent his top assistant, who was local, but from every thing I've seen, Ross/McGovern produced excellent work. To say he was a poor architect based upon one project among many (that was completed after McGovern's death by the way, and after Flynn's death too) and based upon a sixty or seventy year old recollection of a child or teenager is out of line IMO.

Give credit where credit is due. The man was a hell of an assistant, and built large number of very good to great golf courses for Ross."

Ross was a giant in golf architecture, no question about it.  But his assistant?  What did he do that helped Ross's greatness?  I'm not saying he did nothing, but what value add did he provide?  Could William Gordon, Red Lawrence and Dick Wilson done equally well or better with Ross than McGovern?  Their solo work would sure indicate that.  The fact is, when you factor Ross out of the McGovern equation he comes off terribly weak.

Mike Sweeney gave a rather concise and precise description of Overbrook.  Overbrook may have opened the year after McGovern died, but it was according to his plans...I've got the plans.  

Come out to Philadelphia, we'll take the grand tour and you can see for yourself what you think of Overbrook and other McGovern work.  One of the Flynn writing team will welcome you at any rate  

As to the sixty or seventy year recollection of Connie Lagerman, she is very sharp and has a great memory that is consistant over the years we've spoken with her.  Honestly, what's the big deal?  Flynn didn't like him.  I'm sure McGovern could care less, why should we?  

But his solo work that I am familiar with still is mediocre if not worse.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I'm not nominating McGovern for the golf architecture hall of fame...I'm simply saying your character assassination of McGovern based upon one golf course and a sixty year old second hand recollection is out of line. Three decade of collaboration with Ross should be worth something more than "Around these parts (where McGovern lived) history has pretty much shown that J.B. McGovern was not much respected..."

If I'm not mistaken he was a charter member of the ASGCA in 1948...so his colleagues must have had some respect for him.

...of course that was prior to Overbrook, it sounds like they may have booted him out after that effort.  

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I never assassinated his character at all.  I simply stated that of his work in this area and a superficial logical analysis of his work with Ross, he does not come across as a rival to Flynn or any other contemporaries.

And nothing was out of line in quoting Mrs. Lagerman.  She didn't hate the guy, her father did.  Again, so what?  Is that part of a character assassination?

Tom's statements might be a bit off, I don't think there are more than a handful of people in this area that even know of JB McGovern.  You can't criticize or respect someone if you've never heard of them.

Let's get back to McGovern's work.  Is there any particular work that he did for Ross that is remarkable in any way?  Did he have a recognizable style or design tendency?  I'm not making a point, just asking questions because I do not and would like to know.

[T_MacWood]

"In this case if McGovern was a brilliant architect instead of being considered a realitively poor one than Ross/McGovern would be considered an example of a famous duo?

Nice assumption and conclusion, Tom, but infortunately semmingly a pretty historically inaccurate one! " ~~TE Paul yesterday

Wayne
Calling McGovern 'a relatively poor architect' is a character assassination IMO.

I recall both Ron Forse and Brad Klein mention that there were stylistic differences between Hatch and McGovern...but I don't recall the specific differences or styles of these men.

I'd say the original Aronimink was pretty remarkable...asking for 'remarkable' to prove he was 'poor' is going from one extreme to another.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike
Is the routing of Overbrook McGovern's? I've read the course history on the GAP site, and the course appears to have had a long and checkered history.

Tom,

The answer to your question is I don't know, but I have a pretty good guess. The GAP history on Overbrook mentions J.B. McGovern & X.G Hassenplug as architects, and I don't know who X.G. was. However in addition to the WWII, the Overbrook section of Philadelphia was beginning to change from predominitely White and many Irish Catholic to what today and for many years (see Wilt Chamberlin) has been Black. At the Old Overbrook, most of the members probably came from West Catholic, Overbrook and St Joe's Prep high school, where today it is more Malvern, Carroll and St Joe's.

The point of all this is that knowing how Philadelphia works, there is a high probability that the Board of Overbrook, which surely had names like Sweeney, O'Brien and Melvin on it, probably hired a McGovern and not a X.G Hassenplug !

PS. I think a more interesting conversation is what was at the Old Overbrook. I have never seen much on it. It is a hilly site (the hospital today), and I believe it was a Ross.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Hassenplug built most of his courses in the 70s and 80s, and he passed away in the early 90s. Could he have done some revisions? You may want to look into his chief designer/contractor, Ed Beidel.

[Brian_Gracely]

This has to be one of the weirder, most unfounded inquires of a thread I have ever seen. Ross kept McGovern under his employ for 28+ years, even let McG drive him to the last course they ever did together, Raleigh CC.

Brad,

Do you have a reference that speaks to Ross actually visiting the site for Raleigh CC?  I ask because both Michael Fay and Richard Mandell have said that Ross never visited the site but did draw up the original routing.  As a former member, I was just curious why there is a disconnect between the two sources.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom  MacWood,

Let's get back to McGovern's work.  

Is there any particular work that he did for Ross that is remarkable in any way?  Did he have a recognizable style or design tendency?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Hayzus Christ Tom...

Is this site monitored by the FBI?  CIA?

How the hell did McGovern's daughter know we were speaking of her dad in here??  What other possible excuse would there be for her to contact a "Fazio", ostensibly to spread her message of JB's gospel to the world?!??!

What do you think might happen if we got Ms. McGovern and Connie Lagermann in the same room??  I can guarantee you that social niceties would be quickly forgotten and we'd be breaking up a snarling, ugly cat fight!

You know, just when you think that we on GCA are in our own little world, devoid of impact, apart from the masses, here you come to spoil our little party with your tales of intrigue and woe.  

I had almost forgotten that they're always....always...watching.      

[wsmorrison]

Maybe not as great a film documentation as the Zapruder film, this long lost Aronimink film may indeed solve the mystery of the single bunker theory (remember that our Senator is Arlen Spector) or perhaps lend credibility to MacWood's multiple bunker conspiracy theory.  

I even suspect the maker of the film was standing on a grassy knoll.  Tom, get your hands on this film, convert it to DVD and will make an infomercial and sell it on the Golf Channel.  I bet it outsells those stupid copper bracelets!

[wsmorrison]

Let's let Connie take care of our light work.  I think at 83 she can take that skinny Quaker Mike Malone as a warm up to the main event; the title fight between daughters of classic era architects--Connie Flynn Lagerman in one corner and McGovern's in the other corner.  If Connie and McGovern are as good at fighting as their dads were architects, Connie will knock her out 30 seconds into the first round.  

Connie TKOs Mike Malone in the second round and knocks out McGovern in the first!  Sorry for another character assassination but that's how this commentator sees it and I'm sticking to my story.  

[mike_malone]

 I am sure I can convince Connie that we can solve this problem without violence. "Skinny"? I have been working out for six months.

[T_MacWood]

"Tom, really, to describe JBMc as someone who has done work considered poor in this region is not a character assassination but rather a critical review.  If you ever came out here to look at his work, well then you might come across as an informed defender of his work.  Again, it was Flynn who said he didn't like McGovern and thought his work was particularly poor.  Well, his solo work is.  You distorted the matter when you said the duo of McGovern and Ross was such a powerhouse."

Wayne
Was his work at Aronimink poor? Rolling Rock? Sunnybrook? Hartford? Raleigh?

If you look at just the courses in Pa and few surrounding states (which no doubt only scratches the surfaces of projects he assisted Ross with) it includes Torresdale-Frankford, St. Davids, Cedarbrook, Gulph Mills, Kahkwa, Mountain Ridge, Montclair, and Plainfield. The guy assisted Ross for three decades, I reckon he was involved in a number of better than poor or grade-C (as TE describe's him) projects.

I have absolutley no problem with you bringing to light that Flynn didn't like McGovern, and that he allegedly felt he did poor work. I find it very interesting, but based on the work the JBM and Ross did in Pennsylvania alone, how can you say that it is nothing more than professional jousting? It certainly wasn't based on the one course you cite as proof--Overbrook. Overbrook was built after Flynn's death; I believe by Flynn's associate Gordon.  

You don't think Ross & Associates was a powerhouse? I disagree.