Littlestone - what did you think?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Some of you played Littlestone in the recent GCA Ryder Cup tournament.  Sadly, I could not be with you.  I should be interested in your views on the course.  How did it compare with Royal Cinque Ports, given their different green fees?  What other courses did you visit?  Were any of them worthy of the visit?

[Andy Levett]

Mark,
I only played Littlestone and Deal on my trip - Brancaster (on the way down) said " I can't possibly accomodate any more visitors on that day" so I went to the National Maritime Museum instead.

Littlestone's terrific: I wish I could play it every day. It's definitely the same calibre as northern links like West Lancs, Wallasey and Seaton Carew which also don't make the top 100 lists but are really bloody good..


Deal's been well served on this site by NAF and Ran's write-ups and is certainly a very fine course. Whether it's worth the extra green fee is a personal decision: £80 is actually the most I've ever paid for golf, though that  included lunch and an afternoon round.

Littlestone is way better than Steel's Classic Links of GB & I book suggests. He seems to damn it with faint praise, perhaps because he is so fond of nearby Rye.

[Ronald Montesano]

Seems like Al Tait has an affinity for (at least) four rounds at Littlestone each year:

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/apr/13/no-club-snails/

[Bill_McBride]

I love all four of the links courses with nearly equal fervor that are spaced along the coast of East Sussex and Kent.  Each has its great holes on lovely turf, and few weak or pedestrian holes.   Rye, Littlestone, Deal and Sandwich make up this unique foursome.   Princes is behind due to its revisions, abandoned clubhouse and narrow fairways always in a crosswind it seems. 

Littlestone  has some holes I really like - #2 with Mackenzie's notch, the mighty sixteenth with the abandoned alternate fairway, and the brutal par 3 17th.   It also has a charming clubhouse and a very friendly membership.  Playing as many of those courses as possible makes for a great trip. 

[Sean_A]

Mark

I like Littlestone, but for me it is definitely the bottom of a very good pecking order in Rye, Princes, Deal & Sandwich.  I have been meaning to hassle Craig for a game when he is in residence,  but it seems my diary just doesn't match his very well.  In recent years the green fee seems to have risen significantly (£45ish to to £65ish?) and I am not sure I would pay it.  The one main thing which holds my opinion back was (is?) the rough - brutal stuff which is unnecessary.

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

I might or might not rank Littlestone a notch higher than Sean does but my only real quibble is with the rough.

I'm OK with really punitive rough (although it's not my preference) but only on course with more than ample width so that the heavy stuff rarely affects anything other than horribly off-line shot. And I'm with rough that's as much in play as that at Littlestone but only if it's the inch or two deep stuff that keeps the ball findable and can be recovered from. Littlestone when I play there in '06 was a bit off from either of those formulas.

The actual layout is just about perfect by my reckoning. Admirably compact and with just the right amount of rise and fall for interest without needing much effort for climbing as one walks. The greens are a mixture of outstanding ones with plenty of interest leavened with a few that aren't quite as engaging. And the club itself, the house and its situation in the town are perfect.

So a very good club and course I think, suffering mostly from the tough comparison to its neighbors. That plus the rough issue which could presumably be addressed but seems to match the preferences of the club. Worth playing, definitely. I have a soft spot for Littlestone in any case as it was the first links course I ever played!

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

With posts like that I'm amazed Craig hasn't been able to get his diary to match up with yours!

Littlestone was a glaring omission from my time in the UK -- given the proximity to both my home and home club, as well as the availability of tee time exchanges with RCP -- a big regret and one I plan to rectify in 2013.

[Craig Disher]

Complaints about the rough resonated in the club and since last year it has been cut back substantially - the fairways are wider on some holes and the rough has been thinned generally. I think more can be done but I'm encouraged so far. The club is now working with Hawtree Ltd on a master plan that will address a long list of issues. One exciting addition is the re-established 8th tee. Due to pipe work near the main highway, the usual 8th tee (behind the 7th green) won't be in play for a while; an old tee - to the right of the 7th green - has been graded and will used instead. It creates a very different hole from the tee with different options.

Sean - if you're willing, I'm sure we can find an agreeable date. We'll be in the UK for an extended period this summer.

[Craig Disher]

Craig: I haven't been to Littlestone but was curious about the template hole there (or the hole that inspired a template) - is it the 16th? I know it is no longer in its previous form but is it possible to return it to such?

It is the 16th - CBM's model for Lido's 4th. One significant change from CBM's description was moving the green to the left from where it was originally located on the back side of the dune that faces the 3rd tee. Actually the new location enhances the strategy that interested CBM. From the tee, the green is visible through a slot in the mounds at the dogleg turn on the left. CBM's observation that playing over the mounds to the fairway would significantly shorten the hole is still valid - if it weren't for the fact that the area of the fairway one would play to is now rough ground. It would be a small effort for the club to cut that area but for various reasons (unknown to me) there's no desire to do so. Imagine the 4th at Royal St. Georges with rough behind the massive bunker and you'll see the problem.

[Michael Whitaker]

Craig - didn't the club have Brad Klein tour the course and prepare a list of suggested changes? What ever happened from that?

[Rich Goodale]

I think that Littlestone is highly underrated and Rye highly overrated.  If I lived in the area and had the option, I know which club I would join.

Rich

PS--both are great courses and I put RCPD between them but closer (on the upside) to Littlestone.
PPS--until I played Rye for the second time 2-3 years ago, I ranked it much higher based on my then first and only trip to the place in 1981.  After playing it with an addiitonal 30 years experience (and Littlestone and RCPD several times) I concluded that there was less there, there, (not a tyop--viz Gertrude Stein and Oakland) than many other great courses in the world.
PPPS--Sandwich, of course, is the true gem of the SE England coast--golf wise, at least.

rfg

[Noel Freeman]

Littlestone, home of Tuco's DOUBLE EAGLE on the 7th..

That said, I was awfully impressed by Littlestone.  Cunning angles, slippery greens and like Deal it has had a ton of chefs in the kitchen-  I think JF Abercrombie may have done the work that the Good Dr. designed for them.  I know Frank Pennick was a fan and also did some re-bunkering before Steel got in there.  Obviously, the club is known for 2 holes (the 16th and 17th) but I was quite keen on the ones around the turn 8-10.  While I do not think the course is in Deal's league, I would say a Doak 6 is about right and I would spend more time there if there was a faster coastal road from Deal.

[hhuffines]

I am to play Littestone in a couple of weeks and really look forward to it!   Are there some " not to miss " attractions in the area for non golfers?  Has anyone tried fishing in this area?  Thanks!

[Mark Pearce]

I'm with Rihc, I thought Littlestone was a better course than Rye.  Rye must challenge NBWL and Crudeness Bay
 for most overrated course in the UK.  Rye is very good but Littelstone is the course I'd most like to return to.  When I was there (the Pre-BUDA game), I don't recall the rough being unusually severe but I do remember a tremendous challenge and some great holes.

[Bill_McBride]

Craig: I haven't been to Littlestone but was curious about the template hole there (or the hole that inspired a template) - is it the 16th? I know it is no longer in its previous form but is it possible to return it to such?

It is the 16th - CBM's model for Lido's 4th. One significant change from CBM's description was moving the green to the left from where it was originally located on the back side of the dune that faces the 3rd tee. Actually the new location enhances the strategy that interested CBM. From the tee, the green is visible through a slot in the mounds at the dogleg turn on the left. CBM's observation that playing over the mounds to the fairway would significantly shorten the hole is still valid - if it weren't for the fact that the area of the fairway one would play to is now rough ground. It would be a small effort for the club to cut that area but for various reasons (unknown to me) there's no desire to do so. Imagine the 4th at Royal St. Georges with rough behind the massive bunker and you'll see the problem.

Craig, I thought it had to do with the adjacent Coast Road, which had ever increasing traffic over the years.

[Craig Disher]

Craig, I thought it had to do with the adjacent Coast Road, which had ever increasing traffic over the years.

A water pipe is being installed along the coast road and the construction affects the regular 8th tee. This aerial shows how the 8th will play from the new (old) tee. The green line over the bunker visible from the tee is about 140 yards; the red line over the large hill which hides the green and fairway beyond is 210 yards; the blue line - 268. You probably remember that the best approach to the green is from the right. Until I saw the new tee I didn't understand the purpose of the green line tee; it can't be seen from the normal tee and only catches a badly sliced shot into the non-prevailing wind. It's very useful from the new tee as visual intimidation and an aiming point.

[Bill_McBride]

Craig, I thought it had to do with the adjacent Coast Road, which had ever increasing traffic over the years.

A water pipe is being installed along the coast road and the construction affects the regular 8th tee. This aerial shows how the 8th will play from the new (old) tee. The green line over the bunker visible from the tee is about 140 yards; the red line over the large hill which hides the green and fairway beyond is 210 yards; the blue line - 268. You probably remember that the best approach to the green is from the right. Until I saw the new tee I didn't understand the purpose of the green line tee; it can't be seen from the normal tee and only catches a badly sliced shot into the non-prevailing wind. It's very useful from the new tee as visual intimidation and an aiming point.

Craig, I was talking about the 16th hole and the reason there's no longer an alternate fairway to the right.   

[Craig Disher]

Craig, I was talking about the 16th hole and the reason there's no longer an alternate fairway to the right.   

Bill, Sorry. When I saw "coast road" I thought you were referring to the busy A258 but quoted my other post. The narrow road along the beach doesn't affect any part of the course. The alternate fairway (actually on the left of the hole) would have been connected to the rest of the fairway - alternate routes would not have had distinct landing areas. It's unknown why the mowing pattern was changed. Aerials from 1940 show the fairway extended much farther to the left. After 1940 I believe the tee was moved back about 40 or 50 yards - behind the 15th green. The carry from there over the pits and sand on the left is better than 260 yards - not an inviting option. So the hole remains a very penal dogleg left

[Bill_McBride]

Sorry, meant left.  I remember Mayday Malone and the rest of our foursomes match fruitlessly searching for his tee ball over there.  

A tee shot left of the giant fairway bunker would clearly shorten the hole.

The story I heard - maybe from Doak - is that the alternate left fairway was closely mown and in play until traffic on the old coast road grew and became threatened by hooked drives.   The original hole was the inspiration for Macdonald's Lido hole and Doak's 17th hole, "Littlestone," at Old Macdonald.  

I need to return to the Kentish coast!

[Giles Payne]

I'm with a lot of others and think that Littlestone is a lovely course.

I would bracket it with Rye and my mind changes over which one I prefer - I think that with the exception of Ryes poor holes (and they are poor) I think that it is possibly stronger than Littlestone. Littlestone has some very very good holes, probably none as bad as the worst of Rye, but onthe middle ground it might just loose out. It is a close run thing.

As a club, I think that you would be hard pressed to find a much more welcoming and friendly club. All in all, very much worth a visit.