[RE Blanks]

DM
I also see allotted time as as a maximum.  As long as a group does not exceed the established time, they are not in the wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I also see allotted time as as a maximum.  As long as a group does not exceed the established time, they are not in the wrong.

This is where we disagree.

What you have to understand is that one group plays in 4:15, no following group can improve on that time, hence the pace of play for the day immediately jumps to the alloted time with no hope of improving, and the likely possibility that it will continue to deteriorate as the day goes by.

That's why you have to add the addtional condition that the group finishes no more than 8 minutes behind the previous group. (or whatever the tee time differential is).

If the first group plays in 3:00, why should the second group which teed off only 8 minutes behind them, be allowed to play in 4:00 ?  For, if the second group plays in 4:00, no groups that follow them will be able to play in under 4:00 and the golf course will back up.

Tom Huckaby,

You're correct, each course has its unique circumstances and will have to tweak or fine tune the mechanics of the system in order to make it operate efficiently, but, the concept works.

One must analyze the data, identify the problems, create a solution and then implement the procedures.

Kyle Harris,

I think the appeal of the system I outlined is that there is no interaction between staff and golfer, or member and golfer, hence the golfer plays an uninterupted round.

Some golf courses have refreshment shacks.
I would recommend large clocks for those facilities, such that golfers become silently aware of the time.
Having one on the 1st and 10th tees isn't a bad idea either.

George Pazin,

Earlier, I had advised Tom Huckaby to analzye the data.
If that was done, it could demonstrate to management the financial benefit of improving the pace of play.
Once they understand the dramatic impact to the bottom line, they should become strong advocates of the system, its implementation, administration and enforcement.

Dave Moriarty,

Without knowing the customer base I couldn't tell you if a golf course was better off with an incentive program or a penal program, but one way or another, fast play should be rewarded and slow play penalized.

What I'm amazed at is management's lack of understanding regarding the impact of slow play on daily revenues.[/color]

[Paul_Turner]

Bernard Darwin writes about this in "Playing the Like".  But the big difference is that he is enjoying the luxury of four playing in 3 hours (at St Andrews)!  That was slow in those days.

Get your arses in gear

[DMoriarty]

DM
I also see allotted time as as a maximum.  As long as a group does not exceed the established time, they are not in the wrong.

To expand on what Patrick is saying, your reading of allotted time inevitably makes it a minimum as well as a maximum.   Everyone behind the "allotted time" golfer is likely stuck at that golfer's pace or slower.  

I'd amend your statement above to read:  While every group must play in 4:15 or less, all golfers should aspire to play as golf was meant to be played-- at a brisk pace.   Please permit faster matches to play through.  It is the only polite thing to do.  

Patrick said:

Without knowing the customer base I couldn't tell you if a golf course was better off with an incentive program or a penal program, but one way or another, fast play should be rewarded and slow play penalized.

My guess is that punishing might work better at a private course, as compared to a public course.  Access has great value at public courses, and rewarding fast play with preferred access might help build the right kind of customer base, at least for the early morning rounds.  

Of course something like this would only work at courses where the demand for morning tee times exceeded the supply.  

[Jim Johnson]

Just thought I'd add this into the discussion, if it hasn't been posted already...
http://www.popeofslope.com/paceofplay/index.html

JJ

[Jim Johnson]

Several years ago, I eliminated my pre-shot practice swing from my game. There was no difference in scores before or after doing this, and obviously cut more than a few minutes off my game. Figuring, oh, maybe 50 shots other than putts, at say, 15 seconds per gripping, re-gripping, practice swoosh, and setup, it does add up. 12 1/2 minutes, if my math's correct. Multiply that by 4 guys, and you've got damn near an hour of wasted fun. Shivas is right, if everyone eliminated the preshot routine(s), golf would be a much faster game.

JJ

[Kyle Harris]

Pat Mucci,

It's been said that a golfer should see a clock three times before he tees off, and that that will subtly and subsonciously make him aware of the time.

At Talamore, they put a clock on the range, on the first tee, and above the putting green (it's on the bag room, right next to it).

How do you feel a person late for a tee time should be dealt with? If it's not busy, I have them join the group wherever they are. If I had to pair a single up with them, I make them wait.

Pretty dross from my 1000th post, don't you think?  

[DMoriarty]

If I'm the PGA Pro at XYX Muni, the last goddamn thing on earth I'm going to teach is the pre-shot routine.  Why? Faster play means more tee times means more money means more cash in my pocket -- that's why!

I just don't get it.

Here is a theory . . . preshot routines are just about the only thing that every student has a chance of learning.    

[Brent Hutto]

The pro I take lessons from really emphasizes the pre-shot routine but not in the way that Shivas describes. He believes it is very important to do the same thing every time but he believes it's equally important to do it quickly. He's worked with me and with lots of other students by standing there with a stopwatch and making up go through our routine over and over again on the driving range, speeding it up until we can hit the ball within 16 seconds (absolute maximum) with 13-14 seconds being the goal. Unfortunately, I tend to slow down more than that when I'm actually playing but I try to keep it short because I absolutely play better when I'm not hesitating.

The sports pyschologist that my pro consults with believes that the purpose of working on your preshot routine is to simplify it and eliminate distracting thoughts and actions. That said, he does teach one or two practice strokes on putts and chips but for full swings the main advice is "Hit the ball, find the ball, hit the ball again" and you can't get too far beyond that without getting in your own way.

Also, no matter what your pre-shot routine might be you can do most of it while someone else is hitting their shot. I try to be within five or ten seconds of pulling the trigger by the time the other guy is finished.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle Harris,

If someone's late for their tee off time, have the group tee off without them and let him join the group when he gets there.

If it's a single, either have them join the group on the golf course or wait for the next available opening, depending on how the golf course is moving.

Shivas,

Here's where we disagree.

You want to micro-manage every golfer's game and I don't.

Let them do whatever they want as long as, at the end of the round, they've completed it within the alloted time, and within 8 minutes of the group in front of them.

Whatever happens in between is of no concern to me.

I'm only interested in results.

Every time I putt, I take two practice strokes, then address the ball and pull the trigger.  I don't want you or anyone else telling me that I can't do that.  That's my pre-shot routine and I'm not going to alter it.  It still allows me to get around the golf course at a very rapid pace.

The same can be said for a golfer who takes a practice swing before approaching and hitting their ball.

Each of us have our own idiosnycracies and routines and I don't want to disturb them.  I only want one thing, completion of the round on a timely basis, and I don't care how the golfers do it, because that's their individual problem.

Get around in the alloted time and within 8 minutes of the group in front of you and everyone will have had a nice day.

[THuckaby2]

Great stuff by one and all.  And I recall Dave M. positing that plan before... Seems to me like it surely could work... but here's the $128K question:  how do you get management at a public course to buy into that?  I think that's where we parted ways the last time we discussed this... I just can't see Santa Teresa going for this - they think nothing's wrong now as they rake in the cash day after day after day.  How do we get them to see the light - that happy customers will matter and/or that it might make them even more money?  Because the last time I asked about this, they laughed in my face....

BTW, as for Bandon Trails, it's surely not the world's worst walk - yes there is just the one big hike - and yes, one of those won't slow things down too much.  Still, we did everything we could to play fast - both rounds - and each one took app. 4:15.  I was really surprised when I looked at the clock because it didn't seem like we were going slow.  I am masking nothing.  I know these guys - we could play an easy walking course in 3:30 without trying hard.  I swear to you we were playing as quickly as any groups could have, and still it took 4:15.  Thus my questions about absolutes, and use of this as an example.. For whatever reason it just took longer to play.  I guess one reason is each round we had a pretty substantial wait on 14 tee... but that's 10 minutes max... take that away and it's still over 4 hours, which still surprises me.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
At your club you noticed slowdowns due to mulligans. Here at Hotchkiss (public) we found the reverse is true much of the time. A topped shot of 20 or 30 yards or one sent way right or left and short slows the progression of play. The golfer now has the added pressure of recovering whilst 4 or 8 or 12 pairs of eyes are glaring at him from the tee. Rarely do they hit a good second so now you're faced with two more pre-shot routines before anyone else in the group gets to their balls. Contrarily, the mulligan from the tee usually proves to be a relatively good shot, proving the axiom, 'if golf were a two-shot game we'd all be on tour'.

Your plan regarding mulligans is the easiest to implement although we don't take such an absolute stance here.        

[Ted Kramer]

I asked my club to do the following with public groups:

Tell them on the first tee that they are expected to keep up with the group ahead or a 4:30 pace of play.

Tell them that their pace will be monitored after the 4 hole. If they are behind they will be warned that one time only. And when they are monitored after the 8th hole, if they are still out of position their rounds would over. And the starter will offer them the option of going back to the clubhouse and getting a full refund if they don't want to play under those conditions . . .

Thats it, that simple, keep up or you are done . . .
I don't see the purpose of "welcoming" slow play.

And I think that if slow play is eliminated, better players/faster players will begin to consider playing more golf at our club.

I really don't see the downside except for a couple of pissed off slow golfers complaining after being removed from the course. But I'd rather have the slow players complaining about being removed than have the faster players constantly slowed down and irritated by players who can't do the right thing and keep up .

-Ted

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Common Sense and Consideration appear to be discarded attributes in today's self-absorbed/obsessed society.

Why would anyone want to hold up another player/group behind them?

It seems that every bit of human behavior has to be regulated today in the attempt to force civility.

Not bitching, just observing...

JWK

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

First, we like the concept of playing by USGA rules.

Second, when we did the math on each member of a foursome taking a mulligan it was astounding as to the additional time required for the entire field.

It added at LEAST an additional two minutes per foursome.
And, that doesn't take into account the time to retreive the other ball.

That would be at LEAST an additional 20 minutes for every ten foursomes.

If the first foursomes were off at 8:00 am, by noon you'd be about an hour behind, by 3:00pm about two hours behind.

At a public course, each hour represents about 8 foursomes or 32 players.  At greensfees of $ 100, that's $ 3,200 of lost revenue for an hour's delay, $ 6,400 for two hours, not to mention the loss of collateral revenue in the proshop, range, and restaurants.

We studied this for about a year and a half, which included reviewing data for the previous three years.

In the first year of implementation, rounds went from about
5:00 to 4:05.

We were satisfied with the results and so were 99 % of the members.

The chronicly slow players, and there are about a dozen of them, are rarely happy with a reasonable pace of play, but, I'd rather have 99 % of the membership happy.

[Jim Thompson]

JWK - Well said and spot on!

Ted - In my experiences, I have NEVER had a negative come out of dismissing a player or group for any reason from the course.  In fact, every time I’ve taken action it has improved my business.  Regardless of the reason, pace of play, behavior, cart use, conduct toward staff, in each case the non-offending members of the group, who on most occasions are removed with the offender, return in the next week and thank me personally for taking care of so and so.  Apparently they have been trying to get him to come around for years, along with about six other friends of his, and they’ve all had it.  Typically they respond that they will be playing my course MORE because ole so and so won’t come to my course and they, in turn, enjoy their round more than ever.  I’ve actually gained members from this.

Cheers!

JT

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

Again, great stuff for the private club.

But I am faced with a real quandary at Santa Teresa:  they are completely content with the way things are, oblivious to the potential income being lost.  They have a full tee-sheet dawn to dusk (at least on the weekends) and thus are fat and happy.  They also make all the mistakes that make slow play happen:  tee-times are too tight (7 minutes); shop always tends to "squeeze in" extra groups; marshalls are non-existent.  As for the customers, they've just come to expect that a 9am tee time tends to mean a 9:45am actual tee-off, with a finishing time of app. 3pm if you're lucky.

It's a horrible situation, but no one wants to fix it.

So what can be done?  What can make them see the light?  I did present Dave Moriarty's plan to the manager back when we discussed this before, and he really did laugh - he said no way he does that, he'd piss too many people off and he's not allowed to give any preferential treatment re tee-times.  He also actually said something to the effect of a system that's not broken not being needed to be fixed.

 

So what other tactic can I take?  What can I tell them?  What stats can I show them?

I tried all this a year or so ago and it left me quite bitter... But I am a bulldog... because the course is pretty nice, and if we could remove the horrific slow play we'd really have a local gem.

TH

[Ted Kramer]

JWK - Well said and spot on!

Ted - In my experiences, I have NEVER had a negative come out of dismissing a player or group for any reason from the course.  In fact, every time I’ve taken action it has improved my business.  Regardless of the reason, pace of play, behavior, cart use, conduct toward staff, in each case the non-offending members of the group, who on most occasions are removed with the offender, return in the next week and thank me personally for taking care of so and so.  Apparently they have been trying to get him to come around for years, along with about six other friends of his, and they’ve all had it.  Typically they respond that they will be playing my course MORE because ole so and so won’t come to my course and they, in turn, enjoy their round more than ever.  I’ve actually gained members from this.

Cheers!

JT

Most people who make the decisions at my club look at me like I don't have a clue when I talk about my ideas regarding slow play, a look that kind of says, "listen kid you don't know shit about running a golf course, thanks for your opinion"

. . .I'm glad to know that "most people" aren't always the best ones to leave in charge of making tough decisions.

Slow players aren't punished under the current rules,
the considerate players are. There is something fundamentally wrong with that and I'd rather see something severe done in order to correct it rather than just continue to let the problem continue.

-Ted

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I remember my first time at Fishers Island. One of the players in our group was not-too-politely informed that he should not hit again when his ball sailed into the tall fescue fronting the tee box. He was told to go on ahead and hit from the green markers which were placed ahead of this area. Not exactly a mulligan and probably covered by a local rule but not exactly how one normally proceeds when following the rules of golf.

When you did the math did it ever show up that the mulligan takers actually made up the two minutes elsewhere on the course? And did successive mulliganites make up the time too?
I'm not referencing the player who is unhappy that he only hit his tee shot 200 when he knows he can hit it 250 and therefore hits another, along with his three pals who feel the same way. I'm just saying that the incredibly poor tee shot is  oftimes followed up by an equally poor second and adds more time than if that player had hit another from the tee.

As I said earlier, your plan is easy to implement and it works well to improve your club's pace of play.  
   

[Jim Thompson]

Ted,

Most people who make most decisions at most clubs are sales people.(My apologies for over simplifying and generalizing)  They have sold themselves or the course to a board or customers under a premise of providing a conflict free setting where the ship runs smooth, no matter what.  Most greens committee chairs just want one thing after their first month and that's for their phone to stop ringing.  In addition, those with greatest contact with players, golf professionals, tend(again sorry for the generalization) to focus more on avoiding conflict than dealing with it, to the point of becoming a society of social yes men.  If you can get one who’ll take a bull by the horns lock him into a long term contract he’s a rare find.

So how do we deal with this folks or at least get them to come to our side.  Remember, Rome is the Mob.  In this case the mob is those who the powers at be do not want to deal with and those that pester them.  Someone or something has to stir the pot enough to get the 98% silent majority to speak out and create a conflict that the yes men will do anything to avoid, even if that means fixing a problem.  What many of us here would consider an exchange of ideas, would be very uncomfortable for these folks, let alone a point that has some passion behind it.

I’m sure at some level the compensation for these folks should demand action on their part and expectation on yours.  Get your moneys worth and fight the good fight!

Cheers and good luck!

JT

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

The problem is, when golfer's are betting $ 2 or $ 20 or $ 200 they're going to take muligans, every one of them.

Mulligans have evolved to taking the best ball, as opposed to the mandate to play the second ball, and as such, everyone takes them to get the "best" drive they can.

Most golfers aren't concerned about making up the time they took to play a mulligan or a provisional ball.

[Matt_Ward]

As I previously mentioned there is a course just outside of Denver called Mira Vista that proclaims it is the home of the "four hour round."

More importantly, the time factor is monitored and enforced.

Here is an example I read from the Spring 2005 issue of Colorado Golfer.

Recently, one group refused to comply or even adjust to the new requirement. They were asked to leave and their money returned. The offending group claimed the action was racial harassment. Even one member of the group decided to picket the golf course displaying a sign.

When people call to make tee times they do hear the fact that Mira Vista is the home of the four hour round.

Leading the charge of the four hour round is the Colorado Golf Association and the Colorado Women's Golf Association which co-operate the course through the assistance with Evergreen Alliance Golf Management.

To accomodate the rule the following were rules were adopted ...

*Tee time intervals were lengthened from 8 to 9 minutes. Some courses use 6-7 minute intervals to maximize revenue but ultimately cause course gridlock.

*The front and back nines were reversed to allow for faster flow. Those holes have less hazards and easy to see landing areas.

*Rough height has been lowered to 1 1/2 inches to minimize the endless search for lost balls.

*A comprehensive marshalling program has been put into place. More marshalls have been hired and they are continually trained in customer relations. Addiitionally, marshalls now wear headphones instead of walkie-talkies so they won't disturb golfers.

The program is enforced 24/7 no matter how long or short a player is in terms of golf experience or whether they play frequently or infrequently at the facility. I sum -- no favoritism.

The course has a procedure when groups / players fail to keep pace.

When the group is behind, the Marshall gives a verbal warning. When the group is 5 minutes behind, they are given another warning. The third time they are asked to move-up to the newly established "Four Hour Tees." They are only 150-200 yards from the green and require an iron -- not a driver. Research shows this saves the foursome seven minutes.

The slow group plays these tees untill they catch up.

Recently, a Marshall gave a group two warnings and asked them to move up to the "Four Hour Tees" to catch up. Two members of the group refused and teed off from the regular tees and then got into a heated argument with the Marshall.

When one of the members became abusive and claimed racial harassment the Marshall contacted the pro shop and an assistant professional came onto the scene. The foursome of African-Americans accused the Marshall (white) and the Assistant Professional (Hispanic) of harassing them because of their skin color.

The group claimed the Marshall was not forcing the group behind them to play faster. The Assistant Pro tried to explain that the group could not play faster because THIS GROUP was holding them and everyone else up. The following group consisted of two black gentlemen and two white players.

If a group is aked to leave because of slow play, they are given a rain check to come back and try again. The furious foursome said they would never come back so the Head Professional simply gave them their money back.

The single moral of the story -- many facilities don't want to engage in anything of the type just mentioned. Many management groups simply want to collect revenue and throw players out onto the course because taking a clear stand against slow play will require the type of consistent intervention demonstrated at Mira Vista.

It''s truly sad and pathetic when people who are truly slow simply play the race card instead of facing the realities of their own actions.

Kudos to the management at Mira Vista -- more public courses need to go this direction.

[A_Clay_Man]

The problem is, when golfer's are betting $ 2 or $ 20 or $ 200 they're going to take muligans, every one of them.

Patrick,

I know of no golfer who takes a Mulligan.

Provisionals are part of the sport, what's the difference? Timewise.

[MarkT]

Simple solution: Instead of paying a green fee for 18 holes, you pay a green fee for 4 hours of play. When the 4 hours are up, you leave the golf course.

[Kirk Gill]

What arrogance.

Because I have, in the course of my checkered golf life, taken a mulligan I cannot consider myself a golfer?

People who complete a round of golf in over 4 hours need to leave the course?

Perhaps golf architects should take this point of view in mind. They could position parking lots next to the 16th, 17th, and 18th holes for those who figure that their round might go over. Or perhaps additional cart paths could be installed so those over the time limit could leave without impeding play for those ahead of them.

Perhaps a definition of a "golfer" could be posted in the clubhouse. Those who do not qualify could be "persuaded" to play elsewhere, or even take up another sport.

Or perhaps, to quote the estimable Patrick Mucci, "Let them do whatever they want as long as, at the end of the round, they've completed it within the alloted time, and within 8 minutes of the group in front of them."

Systems of warning and appropriate action as mentioned in Matt Ward's post could be implemented.

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