[RE Blanks]

What is the Fascination with fast play?  Why does a 4 some need to finish in 3 hours?  I consider myself a fast player and it does bother me if someone in my group is playing unusually slow but on the other hand I hate when a group playing at sprint pace is pushing a group playing within the allotted time.  If my group is slow, I never have a problem telling the slow player “we need to pick it up”.  But why is everyone in such a hurry to finish?  Has fast play just been accepted as the way to play?  Why is it that everyone is racing to get off the course?

[Andy Doyle]

Well said - this was the point I was trying to make in the Sabbatini thread.  In the continuum of playing paces, why is faster always better?  At what point does faster stop becoming better and start being ridiculous?

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[ChipRoyce]

I'm not sure that "FAST PLAY" is the opposite of slow play.

I think reasonable pace, is the opposite of slow play.

Reasonable pace, IMHO, can be defined 2 ways:
 - The norm for a specific club / course
 - The personal preference for an individual / foursome

Commenting on a specific club / course - this can vary widely and frankly often seems parallel to the club's perception by the outside world. For instance, I love the fact that a member at PVGC can go "on notice" if they and guests have a long round on a given day and could have their membership at risk for continued transgressions.  

It seems, more often than not, that the better regarded a club may be to the outside world, the more adamant the club is in encouraging pace of play throughout the day. For instance, my old home course on Long Island, was as strict about enforcing pace of play (3:45 - 4:00) for foursomes, no matter Saturday morning, or ladies' day on Wednesdday.

My current home course, conversely, is struggling with pace of play and expectations vary dramatically - 4:15 to we don't care, cause the course isn't crowded.

At a personal level, I enjoy getting on a cart after work, and if my home course is wide open, getting a round of golf in at about 2:15 before I get home and have dinner with the kids. If I could play foursomes in 3:15, similar to my travels in Scotland, I would be the happiest camper in the world. I also believe that a foursome should move as quickly as the course would allow (take advantage of open holes ahead). That said, I understand that others might find it a bit hurried and not appropriate for other folks.

[TEPaul]

"But why is everyone in such a hurry to finish?  Has fast play just been accepted as the way to play?  Why is it that everyone is racing to get off the course?"

RE:

I could not agree with you more and I've always felt that way. What is it about these people who think it's the thing to do it go racing around a golf course? Real slow play certainly is an issue but these people who seem to think it's right or smart or the thing to do to fly around a golf course as quickly as they can I don't understand and I doubt I ever will.

[Jim_Coleman]

   It's not a fascination with fast play; it's that slow play is rude, selfish, annoying, and intolerable.
     I believe that the scorecard at Garden City states that rounds are expected to be completed in 3 1/2 hours.  My guess is that this is optimistic and rarely achieved, but a good message.
     I believe that 3 3/4 hours is acceptable "normal play."  Unfortunately, at our club, two early weekend foursomes routinely play in 4+ hours. The extra 20-25 minutes of standing around ruins the day for the next 100 players.  And when confronted, the standard answer is, "The group behind us never pressed us."  
    That's the problem, and it is a problem!

[TEPaul]

And I'll tell you another thing---I've watched a number of tour pros and such play echibition rounds, practice rounds and recreational rounds and they move around a golf course one helluva lot faster than about 95 percent of the amateurs who play golf do.


I even remember a sort of exhibition tournament with a number of tour players at White Manor a few years ago. I recall one group included Davis Love, Robert Gamez and some other player and “through the green” they were moving so fast they all started to try to get their balls in the air at the same time.

[RE Blanks]

For example.  i played with a group about a week ago Sunday afternoon.  We started at 12:30.  All 4 were walking.  As we get to the 2nd green a 3 some in carts is already in the fairway.  I notice them and so do the others in my group.  We putt out and go to the next hole.  No screwing around on the next tee we just hit our shots and move to the fairway.  No one had to say anything but we all noticed the group and decided we needed to get some distance.  the group catches us again at 7 and then stay on us pretty much the whole way into the 10 th tee.  I see a few crossed arms as I am looking at my putts.  As I approach the 10 th tee I look at the clock. 2:07.  We are within our allotted time.  Someone in my groups says to the group behind us as "come through whenever you want"  and one of the guys responds "no thanks, take your time".  They continue to ride us the rest of the way.  

[Brent Hutto]

It's not fascination. The simple fact is, I'm on the golf course to play golf not to watch somebody pace around the green or take practice swings or freeze over the ball. I know that it's possible to play a very enjoyable round of golf at my club in 3:30-4:15 in a foursome without hurrying. When I get paired up with a slowpoke who singlehandedly adds an hour to that time, he's wasting my time and the time of the rest of the group and the time of everyone behind us on the golf course.

If you're not walking (riding) or hitting a shot then get out of the way of those of us who are there to play golf. Common, simple courtesy. I'm not asking anyone to play in 3:00 hours (at least at my club which is not set up for ease of getting between holes). Just don't take 5:00 hours because that's ridiculously, rudely slow.

[Kyle Harris]

This is where the Robinson Assumption comes in, named after my best friend.

He states, "Long ago, more people more interested in this topic than I spent way more time researching it and reaching conclusions than I ever care to do, therefore, making them more knowledgable."

As a result, pace of play should never be expected to be under 4 hours. Ever. It should also never be over 4.5 hours. Ever.

I fly around a golf course... however, I have a Starter's sense of time when it comes to golf, and I know I'll have to wait on people who are precisely on pace.

My research my freshman year of college indicated that roughly 4 hours is ideal for both maximum enjoyment and utility from a round of golf. This is from empirical and subjective techniques and using parametrized statistical analysis. My research also showed that Golf Carts do not speed up play, nor do they increase overall enjoyment, again using similar techniques. I collected data from a sample of about 30 courses of differing types and in different regions as well.

Interesting sidebar: Ever play complete ready golf? Where you never wait for a green to clear or a fairway to clear... just hit the shot so you don't reach the group in front of you... even if it means an iron off the tee?

You'd be amazed how fast you play... and more amazed at how low you actually can go.

[Dan Kelly]

Here's how the PGA of America professionals could do the game a service far, far greater than those free swing lessons they offer:

They could agree to spend one entire weekend of every year riding around their home courses, public and private both, observing every group for a hole or several, then meeting them at the 18th green to tell them how they could speed up play -- without rushing.

I'm with those on both sides of this: those who see golf as an outing, meant to be a relaxed hike rather than a double-time march; and those whose day can be ruined by an unnecessarily pokey playing partner or group ahead.

The difference is probably only a half-hour -- but it might as well be a day and a night.

[Andy Doyle]

Yes - pace should be established based upon an appropriate time for a particular course, not relative to the group in front of you.

A recent example from my group's spring trip to Orlando where we played Diamondback on a Saturday.  The first group off the tee was a threesome of fairly skilled golfers that played quickly - they immediately put some distance on my foursome.  The ranger on the front nine started hassling us on the 5th or 6th hole for not keeping up with the group ahead, even though we were not playing slowly or holding up the groups behind us.  We made the turn under 2 hours and 18 in just over 4 hours.  The pressure here was from the course putting too many golfers on the course in too short of time intervals.

I play reasonably fast and I do not like being caught behind slow players.  But I also realize that very rarely am I going to get to play at exactly the pace I want to play.

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[Kyle Harris]

Here's how the PGA of America professionals could do the game a service far, far greater than those free swing lessons they offer:

They could agree to spend one entire weekend of every year riding around their home courses, public and private both, observing every group for a hole or several, then meeting them at the 18th green to tell them how they could speed up play -- without rushing.

I'm with those on both sides of this: those who see golf as an outing, meant to be a relaxed hike rather than a double-time march; and those whose day can be ruined by an unnecessarily pokey playing partner or group ahead.

The difference is probably only a half-hour -- but it might as well be a day and a night.

Dan,

Do you seriously think if we did that, we'd have jobs after awhile? Pace of play awareness comes from instruction and in giving lessons...

[Craig Van Egmond]

I don't think that most people are fascinated with fast play so much, as the intolerance of slow play.  As long as we keep up with group in front I don't care how fast/slow you play.

Do you encourage the slow players you know to pick up the pace? And we all know some.

Some rounds like Cypress, Prairie Dunes, etc should be savored and not rushed.

[Mike Benham]

And I'll tell you another thing---I've watched a number of tour pros and such play echibition rounds, practice rounds and recreational rounds and they move around a golf course one helluva lot faster than about 95 percent of the amateurs who play golf do.

By definition, the more accomplished players should be faster then the hacks of the world.  Even if the pre-shot routine, walking speed, etc, is exaclty the same between two golfers of far different abilities, the less swings and putts taken will add up to a round completed in a shorter time period.

[Dan Kelly]

Pace of play awareness comes from instruction and in giving lessons...

Maybe so -- but I think we all agree: Wherever it comes from, there isn't enough of it, and no one is doing enough to increase the supply.

Have the pros swap courses, then, if they're worried about keeping their jobs. Call it the Annual Slow Play Audit.

P.S. I know it'll never happen.

[Kyle Harris]

Funny Dan, I was actually thinking that very same thing yesterday, not necessarily specific to Slow Play, but having an outside audit of a golf operation and the PGA self-police themselves may not be such a bad idea.

Something like that COULD happen, and there are plenty of passive ways to promote pace of play.

One of them is having well-trained Rangers and Starter who actually know who is on the course, and where they should be an when... and who are coordinated. We did that at PSU and it works out really really well.

[RE Blanks]

Something that is overlooked here is the course conditioning contributing to slow play.  I play on a course with very small sloping greens and when they are fast you can go ahead and add 30 minutes to your round.  Also when we get our bermuda rough up, a ball that just misses the fairway can sometimes take 2 or 3 minutes to find.  

I enjoy playing the course with fast greens and penal rough but the complaints from the guys who like play fast, keep those conditions to the tournaments.  I would love to play my course under these conditions but I understandthe reasoning we cannot.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

RE Blanks,
The group in the carts only seems to be pushing you, they can motor up to their tee shots at a faster pace then walkers, that's all. It can be a pain to be tailed by carts but the situation would not be much different if your group was riding too, the group behind would still be getting to their tee balls while you were putting.
Carts quicken the intervening walks and, for those players who lack etiquette, this can be translated into a perception that the group ahead is slow. Sounds like the group following you realized your pace was adequate as they declined the offer to play through.

[TEPaul]

RE:

When course conditioning begins to fall victim to the need to rush around a golf course as quickly as possible both golf archtiecture and golf itself is going to begin to lose a lot!

This is a good subject you posted and I like it also because at first it appears to go against the grain and popular opinion on here which can always tend to get too overblown and black and white about various things and opinions.

As Max Behr cautioned----eg "Man" really does always sort of gravitate toward "standardizations" and formulaics" in games. Behr called it the deleterious "game mind of man" and in his opinion it was a mind-set that tended to minimize the all important balance and part of the randomness of Nature in golf architecture and golf.

This speed fascination also seems to me to be another form of deleterious effect of Man's innate habits---in this case to never stop rushing from one thing to another. Call it just pure impatience or lack of patience.

If the golfer is to enjoy himself on a golf course he should certianly consider slowing down enough to do precisely that instead of rushing in, rushing around and rushing away.

Slow down and enjoy the walk and smell the roses along the way as they say and if it takes 4 hours and 15 minutes instead of 3 hours and 45 minutes who the hell really cares in the end?

[RE Blanks]

"Slow down and enjoy the walk and smell the roses along the way as they say and if it takes 4 hours and 15 minutes instead of 3 hours and 45 minutes who the hell really cares in the end?"

That is it

[rgkeller]

>>As a result, pace of play should never be expected to be under 4 hours. Ever<<

Well, I know at least two golf clubs often discussed on this board where you would not be welcome as a member or as a guest.

[ForkaB]

RE

A proper round of golf can be played in any amount of time between 30 minutes (marathon runner/golfer) and infinity.  At a natural walking pace, and with adequte, but not excessive shot preparation, a 4-ball can get around just about any course in 3 1/2 hours.  Once you start going over that limit you begin to start waiting on shots, and that completely changes the nature and rhythm of the game.  It is not long before hit it and wait begins to start to feel like infinity.  You might like that feeling, but I do not.

[RE Blanks]

I guess i do not play on a course that is often very crowded and waiting is the norm.  We have about half walkers and half riders.  An older contingent of walking members, that are notorious for playing fast, always play early on Saturday and Sunday.  They secure the earliest tee times and they take off at 7:45 and try to beat their last round of 2:26.  i think they actually play against the clock instead of par.  I agree that round should take no more than 3:30 but our club allows a 4 hr round.  When I say fast play I am not referring to a reasonable pace, I am talking about an abnormal sprint from 1 to 18.  

[Tom_Doak]

RE:  My fascination with fast play is simply that I'd like to get home and do something else with my day, too.  And I have it on experience overseas that golf does not HAVE to be the slow game it is here in America.

[Brent Hutto]

If I'm going to be at the course for seven hours, I'd love to get in 36 holes. If the course is crowded then 27 is more like it. There's only so much time for playing golf and I'd rather play than stand around watching somebody take practice swings all afternoon.

Yesterday I played with a high school junior who plays in a lot of state and regional tournaments in his age group. He said that the norm is 6 hours for a tournament round but it sometimes stretches out longer than that, almost never less then 5-1/2 hours. I asked him how he dealt with it and he just shrugged and said that's what tournament golf is like, it's part of the deal. He said it's only a problem when it's 100 degrees and he starts getting tired after about five hours out in the sun.

My first thought is that he's more mature than Rory Sabbatini about it. My second thought is it's a pity that America's best young players grow up thinking that tournament golf is a game of standing around waiting. What a world.

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