[Ted Kramer]

What arrogance.

Because I have, in the course of my checkered golf life, taken a mulligan I cannot consider myself a golfer?

People who complete a round of golf in over 4 hours need to leave the course?

Perhaps golf architects should take this point of view in mind. They could position parking lots next to the 16th, 17th, and 18th holes for those who figure that their round might go over. Or perhaps additional cart paths could be installed so those over the time limit could leave without impeding play for those ahead of them.

Perhaps a definition of a "golfer" could be posted in the clubhouse. Those who do not qualify could be "persuaded" to play elsewhere, or even take up another sport.

Or perhaps, to quote the estimable Patrick Mucci, "Let them do whatever they want as long as, at the end of the round, they've completed it within the alloted time, and within 8 minutes of the group in front of them."

Systems of warning and appropriate action as mentioned in Matt Ward's post could be implemented.

Lets look at it like this . . .

20 groups of 4 are going to the course to play.

- 10 out of 20 like to play quickly and play in 3:30

- 5 out of 20 like to play quickly but take a little more time around the greens and play in about 4 hrs.

- 3 of the 20 take 4:30 to play.

- 2 of the twenty take 5:30 to play.

If either of those last 2 groups tees off early in the day you have 75% of the day's groups irritated.

If you irritate both of the really slow groups by forcing them to play at a reasonable pace, you have irritated 25% of the day's groups.

Why should a few slow players be allowed to ruin the day for the vast majority? How is that any less arrogant?

Nothing personal here, just exploring the topic.

-Ted
 

[tonyt]

DM
I also see allotted time as as a maximum.  As long as a group does not exceed the established time, they are not in the wrong.

You come close to being correct here. Of course, if in the act of taking the full allottment, they fell a hole behind the group in front, they are in the wrong. fullstop. As far as the allottment is the rule, so is the rule of keeping up with the group in front. There would be nothing worse than playing at around 3hrs 40min pace, being held up by a group a hole and a half behind, only to have them not give a darn because they are still within allotted time. Fortunately, most golfing nations are those where this group's attitude won't float, and shouldn't.

With apologies, as I have said before, this does not apply when a group ahead bolts around in super fast time and even 3hrs 30mins in your group means you can't keep up.

My enormous dismay is that there are people who believe that once they conform to the allotted time at worst, they cannot be perceived to be in the wrong. Sorry. That is not true.


stavros,

If nobody else is on the course and you are holding nobody up, I don't see any problem in your group taking 12 hours, including pulling out a card table and playing a few hands along the way.

I couldn't agree with you more about your point of rushing what is supposed to be a recreational game. As I have said before, the problem lies in people not realising that some time well under 3hrs can be rushing. But that most golfers who claim to be "rushed" or don't want to rush aren't doing so at all. They are the ones who resent being "sped up" to within four hours.

I play with people who can sleep walk a course, stop and tell jokes, line up their putts from everywhere, get the others to drop a ball in a cool spot around a green and still leisurely walk off the 18th green in anything between 3hrs and 3hrs 40mins on an average walking course. Age or disability issues aside, what are 4hr groups of able bodied golfers actually doing out there?!?!

[Kirk Gill]

I think I understand the topic.

The arrogance I referred to was in saying that anyone who might be inclined to take a mulligan is not a golfer. In the course of a recreational round, it happens, and judging by other earlier responses on this thread, I'm not the only person who has ever taken a mulligan that might actually consider themselves a golfer. It has even been suggested that under some circumstances it might actually speed up play.

I hate slow play as much as the next guy, and I'm inclined to believe that enlightened course management (as mentioned in Mr. Ward's earlier post) combined with the education of slow players can curb the problem. And if it's mulligans that are really the main issue causing the slowdown, then I'll join you in the campaign to eliminate them

At the same time, name-calling and draconian measures will just serve to create a tense atmosphere that is the opposite of what I'm looking for on a golf course.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Tony's comment to Stavros is dangerous.  "...if you're not holding anyone up, I don't care if you take 12 hours."  (Yes, it's a little out of context, but so what; I'm making a point here.)  
   I've gotten into more than one argument with a group with two holes open in front of it that offers the defense, "We're not holding anyone up."  BAD ANSWER!!  

[Ken_Cotner]

Yesterday I played with a high school junior who plays in a lot of state and regional tournaments in his age group. He said that the norm is 6 hours for a tournament round but it sometimes stretches out longer than that, almost never less then 5-1/2 hours. I asked him how he dealt with it and he just shrugged and said that's what tournament golf is like, it's part of the deal. He said it's only a problem when it's 100 degrees and he starts getting tired after about five hours out in the sun.

My first thought is that he's more mature than Rory Sabbatini about it. My second thought is it's a pity that America's best young players grow up thinking that tournament golf is a game of standing around waiting. What a world.

And this is why it's so important that the PGA tour get serious about the issue.  Penalty strokes (not fines) every time a player takes too long on a shot; implementing the California rule someone mentioned earlier; heck, the Mucci rule for entire groups going over 4 hours!  It's way out of control, and too many amateurs imitate the pros.  Normally I wouldn't give a rat's a** about the touring pros, but they are role models for better or worse.

Does an NBA player EVER get any more than 24 seconds to take a shot?

We now have the US Open using split tees, and I just don't believe it's because the courses are harder.  

End of rant!

Ken

[A_Clay_Man]

I think I understand the topic.

The arrogance I referred to was in saying that anyone who might be inclined to take a mulligan is not a golfer. In the course of a recreational round, it happens, and judging by other earlier responses on this thread, I'm not the only person who has ever taken a mulligan that might actually consider themselves a golfer. It has even been suggested that under some circumstances it might actually speed up play.
Kirk, The above reference, to a "golfer", had a bet attached to it. So, it was implied "under the rules". I could give a rats ass what YOU do during a casual round of practicing

At the same time, name-calling and draconian measures will just serve to create a tense atmosphere that is the opposite of what I'm looking for on a golf course.

  Arrogance, is only taking into consideration why you're out on the golf course.

Peer review and a faster pace can be better accomplished through honest interaction and discourse. This name calling or tattle-telling, is a key ingredient, needed to embarrass the culprits into submission. Otherwise, they really are not golfers, choosing which rules and which ettiquette to follow, now that's arrogance.

[Kirk Gill]

Look, I don't think that our opinions on slow play are all that different. There are golfers who are jerks. Who understand that their slow play is affecting others and just don't care. But I believe that they are in the minority. Most slow players aren't arrogant regarding the rules and proper etiquette, they are ignorant of those rules and of the proper way to play the game. There are ways, in my opinion, to educate them and get them with the program without beating them up about it and making them defensive and angry.

To answer the original question on this thread, the fascination with fast play comes from the fact that it makes for a more enjoyable round of golf. Bottom line. Slogging through a five-hour round gets me hacked off, which is not what I'm looking for on the course. It's that anger that feeds the desire to "get medieval" on the slowpokes. Understandable. I just think that a calm, reasoned approach will work better.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I know of no golfer who takes a Mulligan.

Provisionals are part of the sport, what's the difference? Timewise.

Adam,

Trust me when I say that mulligans aren't rare.

The diffence, time wise, is the frequency of incidence.

Provisionals can ONLY be played in certain circumstances.

Mulligans can be played at WILL.[/color]

[tonyt]

stavros,

The crux of my point about "rushing" is something you in fact captured. Guys who feel rushed or that they are playing polo can avoid doing so (although I use 4hrs instead of 3hrs as an example). Not by taking longer, but by eliminating the bad habits that are making them so slow.

An able bodied group of four walking golfers on a fairly standard ease walking course cannot take four hours without doing something horribly wrong. If anything inside four hours feels rushed or like polo to some, something is terribly amiss.

As a result, golfers should learn the following;

Doing the same thing you are doing, yet doing it faster, may well feel rushed. This is not the answer. It is the elimination of things that are being done that shouldn't be done at all that speeds up play. A lot of older and retired sub 3hr 30min players take their time and don't walk particularly fast. Speed is not the issue. It is removing habits or actions which have no place.

I knew one guy who used to mark the card between holes before his tee shot even when he had the honour! And another who often didn't leave his cart/pull buggy between the green and the next tee. Wow, there's 15 minutes for that group already. There is so much down time in golf when it is not your turn to play. You can read or even write a book during those times. Its the swig of drink or other non-shot playing action players do when it is their turn that costs them most. When they could take equally long (or longer) to happily do same after their shots instead of before and save loads of time.

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