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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why does GCGC resist scoring so well, with so little ?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2005, 05:42:32 PM »

Patrick,

How do you know that scoring is difficult on this course?  

As a start, from the analysis of every year's tournament records maintained over the last 30 + years.
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On what do you base your opinion?  

Didn't you read reply # 3 ?
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Is it based on member's difficulties in "going low"?
See reply # 3.
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TEPaul & Wayne,

There is a new green superintendent and a new committee that are determined to get the golf course in the ideal condition for its architecture, fast and firm.

Unfortunately, Mother Nature didn't cooperate this spring with wet weather and cool temperatures, but, the direction the course is headed in is a good one.

With most greens open in front, I don't see the pot bunkers, of which there are very few, influencing play in a global sense.

Gary_Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does GCGC resist scoring so well, with so little ?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2005, 10:39:55 PM »
OK Patrick.  Mea culpa.  I didn't read reply #3 on this thread.

You promised to post your opinions at a "later date".  How about now?  I'm interested to know how a "flat" course with moderately sloped greens that are "open" in front can resist scoring so well.

What is the secret?  Do tell.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why does GCGC resist scoring so well, with so little ?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2005, 05:45:38 PM »
Gary Nelson,

I don't know if there are any secrets, but I'd offer a few observations.

Many of the bunkers are deep, some to the point that you can't see the putting surface from them.  I think this is an intimidating factor and I think it puts pressure on ones approach and recovery game.

I think the yardage on the short holes misleads the player into thinking they're easy holes.

While the fairways are WIDE, the rough is difficult, causing players to become defensive, which makes the course play longer than its yardage.

There's also an uncertainty with forward hole locations with respect to carrying the ball to the putting surface or hitting it short and allowing it to run to the hole.

Some of the fairways cant from right to left, with greens that cant left to right, which usually translates to approach shots missing the green left, or being above the pin.

Some holes require decisions, like # 4.
Do you try to carry the cross bunker and deep rough on your second shot, leaving you a short distance to a difficult green, or, do you lay up, leaving you 120-140 to a difficult green.

There are subtle elements of blindness, off the tee and on second shots that unsettle the golfer.

If you miss the greens by a narrow margin, recovery is difficult.

With par at 37-36=73 pressure to break 80 is heightened, causing golfers to press.

There is usually a nice breeze affecting play.

But, I believe the primary reason the golf course resists scoring is the slope of the greens, greens that transition seemlessly from the fairways.

It's difficult to get your approach shot DIRECTLY below the hole, which is critical.  And, if you're not DIRECTLY below the hole, putting is difficult as almost every putt has the slope in it.

There are also a number of greens with subtle contouring that the golfer doesn't always see, which adds to the difficulty, especially when that's combined with some slope.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why does GCGC resist scoring so well, with so little ?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2005, 01:49:10 PM »
Patrick,

You should have just quoted my response.  No need to re-type all of that!  ;)


Gary_Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does GCGC resist scoring so well, with so little ?
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2005, 07:35:15 PM »
Patrick (and Mike Cirba),

It sounds as if GCGC is a remarkable course on an unremarkable site.  Are the GCGC design details you mentioned used regularly in modern course designs?  If not, why are architects avoiding them?

It seems that the features you describe would be inexpensive to create.

Thanks,

Gary

CBFriars

Re:Why does GCGC resist scoring so well, with so little ?
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2005, 07:40:56 AM »
Pat,

There is no one on this sight that has studied that golf course more than I.  I stared at it everday for 5 years. I was the assistant superintendent there for about 5 years.  The difference about GCGC compared to most is the following:

Greens are extentions of the fairways with open approach shots.  Some of these approach shots demand a more bump and run shot where most of todays game is played in the air.  The approaches need to play like the greens.

Deep pot bunkers with inconsistent sand conditions throughout the course.  Some at least 10' below putting surfaces.

Nasty rough.  the rough at GCGC was mowed at 4" height of cut, where most courses mow there roughs at 2 or 2.5".  Not to mention in the mid 90's the addition of 2 more rows of irrigation to water the edges of those large fairways made thsi rough more healthy and also made for some nasty native areas surrounding  fairways.  Some of the native areas can reach heights over 3'.

The length of GC for todays standard is short, but that actually helps make it hard to hit it off the tee there.  With today's technology, guys are hitting it longer and the one thing I notice about GC is the longer you hit it the fairways get more narrow it gets, these fairways increase chance to find trouble.(ie,#4,5,7,11,15,16,17).

Lastly, GCGC is definately a course that has home field advantage because of the ever changing conditons and proper course management to play it.  Just a couple of my thoughts.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why does GCGC resist scoring so well, with so little ?
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2005, 12:48:54 PM »
CBFriars,

I think most of the smarter, better players throtttle back on the holes you mentioned, allowing them to hit to the prefered drive zone with a more controlled club.

Holes, # 4, 5, 11, 14 and 16 are good risk-reward driving holes for the longer hitter, and can add a bit of uncertainty to the players mind and swing

Hitting to angled greens that deflect shots coming in from the wrong angle remains a significant challenge, on both approach and recovery shots

Thanks for your perspective.

Gary Nelson,

I"ve always been puzzled as to why others didn't try to emulate the features found at GCGC over these last 50-60 years.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 12:50:15 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

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