Mountain Ridge - NJ State Amateur - GCA.comers

[Steve_ Shaffer]

From www.njsga.org


McGowan Captures 104th Amateur Championship



Mark McGowan of the Montclair Golf Club today became the 104th New Jersey State Golf Association Amateur Champion, shooting a four round total of 288 (4 over par) at the par 71, 6970 yard Mountain Ridge Country Club in West Caldwell. McGowan, 37 of Roseland, completed his stellar feat in capturing the Edwin M. Wild Championship trophy, shooting 72 and 75 in today’s third and fourth rounds, besting fellow Montclair Golf Club member Michael Deo who finished second,  firing a four day total of 291.

The 2004 Champion, Allan Small of Fairmount, placed in impressive third, including his hole in one during Monday’s first round on the 155 yard 7th hole. The low 20 finishers in this year’s Championship will be exempt from qualifying for the 2006 NJSGA Amateur Championship, which will be held at the Deal Golf and Country Club in early June.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Have you seen any vintage photos of Mountain Ridge, and if you have how close do you think Prichard got to the original version, as far as bunker style (did the original course have Prichard's favored grass-over style), trees, width, etc.?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat
Have you seen any vintage photos of Mountain Ridge, and if you have how close do you think Prichard got to the original version, as far as bunker style (did the original course have Prichard's favored grass-over style), trees, width, etc.?

Tom,

What you fail to recognize is that vintage photos aren't the same thing as photos of the golf course in its original state.

Often times your vintage photos reflect years of edging, green committee alterations or other maintainance practices that alter the look and play of a bunker.

The other thing you fail to recognize are the decisions the membership makes with regard to restoration work.
It's not unusual for the architect to strive for a "pure" restoration only to have the membership opt for an "altered", "muted", or "hybrid" restoration.

For example, the 7th hole had a substantial bunker complex between the tee and the green.  Some members of the committee wanted them restored, but, they were outvoted.

The same holds true for the tree removal program.
While many trees were removed, many more could have and should have been removed, but, that wasn't what the commitee-membership elected to do.

Many, if not most memberships shy away from flat bottomed bunkers, prefering slight inclines that will feed the ball away from the bank-face, making recovery easier for the membership.

You seem to labor under the impression that the architect doesn't do any research, knows nothing about the original or successive architects and has total artistic control over the project.  None of that is true.

With respect to Mountain Ridge, given your expertise and experience with restorations and Ron Prichard's expertise and experience with restorations, and your relative people skills when interacting with memberships,  I'll take Ron Prichard's word and work over yours every time.

If Ron had been given a free hand I think the restoration would have been purer, but, that wasn't the reality of the situation.

I've only been playing Mountain Ridge for fifty (50) years,
perhaps those more familiar with Mountain Ridge could offer their opinions.

Jamie Slonis,

I'd agree about the back nine.
I think the problems with the swamp and drainage are significant.  And, I'd like to see more trees removed.
# 14 could be a superior "skyline" green.

On # 12 I've been an advocate for removing the trees that form the dogleg and returning the hole to its original form, but, that's a long way from happening.

I also agree with you regarding the large tree on # 18.
I've been in the middle of the fairway and had the flight of my ball blocked by that tree.  It's outgrown its usefulness[/color]

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Have you seen old pictures of Mountain Ridge in its original state, if so do they match the style found today?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I've never seen a picture of Mountain Ridge on opening day or shortly thereafter.

I've seen a number of pictures from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's.

There are two great aerials in the club house.
I'll try to get the dates of the photos tomorrow.

[Greg Stebbins]

Pat,

Thank you for the kind words.  It was a memorable day that I think I was due for as I had been hitting the ball great all year but really struggling on the greens.  I switched putters before the 3rd round and the putts started falling.

As far as Mountain Ridge goes, it is one of my favorite golf courses anywhere.  I first played it in the 2000 Met Open, but the course was much shorter and extremely wet as it seemed to rain every day that summer.  Last week the course was much firmer and the new back tees bring the fairway bunkers into play as intended.

The course has plenty of exceptional holes, especially #'s 1,2,4,8,9,11,13,15 and 17 in my opinion.  What I really like is that while the fairways and playing areas are on the wide side for the met area, the tee shot is extremely important.  The fairway bunkers and the rough are penalizing.  You must keep the ball below the hole on the golf course and that is very difficult from the rough, or the wrong side of the fairway on some occasions.  

I can only be critical of holes 7 and 18.  

The 7th is an uphill par 3 with a severe puchbowl style green.  The slope on the green is such that I could not keep my ball from spinning off the front of the green in the first 3 rounds.  In the 4th round, I played a shot to keep spin off the ball and it skipped over the green.  From there, it was impossible to keep the ball on the green.  I think the green needs to be softened, or they need to let the grass grow a little more.

As for the 18th, lets just say that I'm glad that Mark won by a few shots.  The green is far too severe for the green speeds of the week and the hole was just plain goofy.  I was really hoping that someone wasn't going to lose the tournament by playing hockey on that green.  I think if it was a little drier with a stronger breeze on Wednesday, the green would have been unplayable regardless of where the pin was.  

As for the tree on the right side, I think it was fine before the new back tee was put in as you could drive the ball past it.  Now it has to be one or the other.  I think the hole is plenty strong without the tree.

All in all, one of the best in the Met area, no doubt about it.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Mr, Redanman

Did you play Mountian Ridge before Pritchard's work?

would you describe Prichard's changes?
If not how do you know what he did and what he left intact?

It is unfair that you are anonymously bashing an architects work under the cloak of anyminity.  At least give some specifics.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Hamilton

What's the difference if someone sees the course before Prichard's work?  If someone isn't so enthusiastic about the finished product who cares what was there before?

If Redanman and I both INDEPENDENTLY post on this board a distinct preference for Plainfield might that say something?  

If Redanman and I both INDEPRNDENTLY prefer the FINAL PRODUCT at Beverly, Skokie and especially Aronimink to Mountain Ridge might that say something?

I played another great Ross course yesterday, Wannamoisset and it just might blow them all away. The bunker style there was not much like that found at Aronimink, MR, Beverly or Skokie including the old photos I saw but perhaps it isn't what could be called Ross' best  

By the way Hamilton/Pat I did play Plainfield several times before and several times after Hanse's restoration.  I will not type in all the changes he made many of which were obvious but it was an outstanding improvement.  

PS_ to the moderator - I too would like an additional login so that I can pick a name to post whimsical stuff to support all my ideas like HamiltonB Hurst is permitted to do.

[JSlonis]

Pat,

I did hear from a couple of prominent members of MR that there has been some talk of removing those Pines on the edge of the dogleg on #12 and returning the bunker complex.  I have no idea of what the clubs timeframe is for doing this, but from what I understood, it is strongly being considered.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Jamie

That would be a very good idea as that to me is the weakest hole on the course and a posterchild for the "stupid use of trees" to impose lines of play on the golfer.  The hazard on the right might then be useful off the tee as well and adding strategy with bunkers. THey would need a good drainage contractor to get it done.

I hope the members go forward with that improvement to the course.

[Jim Franklin]

I played with Tom Gramigna over the weekend at the Baltimore Country Club Men's Invitational. I thought Tom won the NJ Am, but he won the Mid Am by beating our Jamie Slonis.

PS My partner and I won the Men's Invitational .

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greg & Jamie,

If the trees planted in the left rough on # 18 were removed and the ample rough mowed to fairway, as the hole was originally shaped, the tree would be less of a factor.

As to the greens which are terrific, there is a speed at which they become unreasonable.

Greg, there was talk of softening the punchbowl 7th green.
I mentioned to some interested parties that would be a terrible modification for several reasons, especially the domino effect.  What would be next.   It's original Ross, why tinker with it ?  Better to keep green speeds in keeping with his putting surfaces which are marvelous at Mountain Ridge.

Sometimes the most difficult part of a restoration is the ongoing work that needs to be done after the big splash.

Removing the trees from the right of # 12 and behind # 14 would be tremendous improvements.


Geoff Childs,

I don't accuse you of being Redanman because you agree on a subject.   Don't accuse me of being HBH when he agrees with me.

By the way, how many times have you played Mountain Ridge ?

Is it possible that repeat play will allow you to see the light ?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat

As I said, I thought MR was a fine course.  I am not trying to imply otherwise. I've played it that once and if you would like to show it to me again I would happily attend.

How many times have you played Beverly and Skokie? Are you in a position to dispute my preference for those two and for Aronimink? Have you played Plainfield since your match with Ran and might that intense struggle affected your view of the architecture and Gil's work? Have you seen the 16th hole since it was restored?  Magnificent!

How many times have you played Wannamoisset and are you in a position to refute the status of their bunker project and the look of those Ross bunkers?

Is that enough questions for you?  Oh - I guess that's another one  

PS- I am not redanman but we have been accused of being twins looking so alike as we do.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As I said, I thought MR was a fine course.  I am not trying to imply otherwise. I've played it that once and if you would like to show it to me again I would happily attend.

How many times have you played Beverly and Skokie? Are you in a position to dispute my preference for those two and for Aronimink?

No, your preference is your preference.[/color]

Have you played Plainfield since your match with Ran and might that intense struggle affected your view of the architecture and Gil's work? Have you seen the 16th hole since it was restored?  Magnificent!

No.  I've asked Ran back several times but he refuses to return and indicates that he still has nightmares over holes
# 13, 14 and 15.[/color]

How many times have you played Wannamoisset and are you in a position to refute the status of their bunker project and the look of those Ross bunkers?

About a dozen times.
Yes.[/color]

Is that enough questions for you?  Oh - I guess that's another one  

No[/color]

PS- I am not redanman but we have been accused of being twins looking so alike as we do.

[mitchell cooper]

Hamiltonbhearst and Pat Mucci.  a matched set.  Just what the golf world needs.  I am sure Mucci is happier hanging with guys like Hearst at GCGC.  I am sure Mucci can find a few membership related reasons not to like Mountain Ridge.

[JSlonis]

Hamiltonbhearst and Pat Mucci.  a matched set.  Just what the golf world needs.  I am sure Mucci is happier hanging with guys like Hearst at GCGC.  I am sure Mucci can find a few membership related reasons not to like Mountain Ridge.

If I can infer what you meant by your above statements, I must say you are way off base!  The gentlemen on this site could care less if a club's membership is primarily Jewish...WASP...Alien...or any other tag that you wish to choose.  The guys on this site care about great golf courses and their architecture.  Your statement to suggest otherwise is extremely small minded.

Where on this thread did Pat Mucci have anything bad to say about Mountain Ridge.  In fact he says it compares in many ways to Plainfield, which is constantly mentioned among the elite courses in NJ.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Hamiltonbhearst and Pat Mucci.  a matched set.  Just what the golf world needs.  I am sure Mucci is happier hanging with guys like Hearst at GCGC.  I am sure Mucci can find a few membership related reasons not to like Mountain Ridge.

Mitchell- Pat and I are messing a bit in this discussion but your comment is way off base and tasteless to boot.

Anyone who has had the pleasure of Pat's company be it at a dinner or at any number of clubs would know better then to make a statement like that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I viewed a number of photos from the forties and fifties and would have to say that Ron Prichard's work mirrors or closely resembles the bunkering as it appears in those photos.

I can't speak to the 1912 version of the golf course because I've never seen photos taken on or around that date.

The grass topped and rolled over bunkers, some with noses, are replete in tbe early photos.  So, at Mountain Ridge, that's what the early photos reflect.  If you saw the bunkers, where they sit, and their foot pads, you'd see that they would have to have rolled over grass tops.

I don't see Redanman's and Geoff Child's version of the bunkers.  I see what appeared to exist in the late 30's, 40's and 50's replicated by Ron Prichard.

Mitchell Cooper,

I suspect that given the choice, almost everyone, regardless of their ethnic, religious or national backround, would prefer to be in my company versus yours, on and off the golf course.

I was at Mountain Ridge today.
You should know that despite your absurd contention, even though they don't have any non-Jewish members, they don't serve Kosher food as standard fare.  You should also know that they've NEVER served Kosher food as standard fare.

I also asked you to name just five clubs in America that serve Kosher food as standard fare, and you haven't been able to  name just one, despite your contention that a non-Jewish club that doesn't serve Kosher meals is presenting an anti-semitic environment to Jewish guests.

This has to be the most absurd accusation that I've ever heard.

I have a number of very close friends, people who I've known for 40 years, who are members of Mountain Ridge and I know about 50 members of the club.  Saturday night I was at a party at a member's home and today, two members invited me to play with them in late June or early July.
I feel quite comfortable at Mountain Ridge and apparently the members of Mountain Ridge feel quite comfortable with me.

As to HBH, I've never met the man.

I also sense that if people dislike you, you blame it on bigotry rather than face the unpleasant truth that it may be you, the person, that they find distasteful.

You must have forgotten that my first wife, the mother of my two oldest children, is Jewish.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat- My comment about the bunkers at Mountain Ridge was that they were interchangable/virtually identical to those also built by Prichard at Aronomink, Beverly and Skokie.

I found that odd and when I personally asked Ron about this he said to me with his own words that in the absence of full documentation (a paraphrase of his statement) he built them to what he thought was Ross' best work (that part of the statement is exact).  If those at MR are teh same as previously documented by drawings and photos then so be it.

I still prefer the courses I mentioned previously and find it odd that the styles at Wannamousett and Plainfield differ from the four courses done by Prichard.

Enough - We'll discuss it further over a Pastrami on Rye with a Cream soda. My treat come up where I work and it will be fully blessed  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat- My comment about the bunkers at Mountain Ridge was that they were interchangable/virtually identical to those also built by Prichard at Aronomink, Beverly and Skokie.
I'd have to take a closer look, but, why would that surprise you if all of the bunkers on those golf courses were designed and built by Ross, why would you expect them to be vastly different.

How are the fairway bunkers on # 4 or # 18 at Wannamoissett so different from those at Mountain Ridge ?[/color]

I found that odd and when I personally asked Ron about this he said to me with his own words that in the absence of full documentation (a paraphrase of his statement) he built them to what he thought was Ross' best work (that part of the statement is exact).  

What course was he referencing when he made that statement ?[/color]

If those at MR are teh same as previously documented by drawings and photos then so be it.

I still prefer the courses I mentioned previously and find it odd that the styles at Wannamousett and Plainfield differ from the four courses done by Prichard.

Geoff, your preferences are YOUR preferences.

Do you find the bunkers at Bethpage the same as those at Baltusrol Upper or San Franscisco ?[/color]

Enough - We'll discuss it further over a Pastrami on Rye with a Cream soda. My treat come up where I work and it will be fully blessed  

As a Goy, and without offending Mitchell Cooper, do you mind if I take a tuna on whole wheat toast ?  I love cream soda.[/color]

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat- My comment about the bunkers at Mountain Ridge was that they were interchangable/virtually identical to those also built by Prichard at Aronomink, Beverly and Skokie.
I'd have to take a closer look, but, why would that surprise you if all of the bunkers on those golf courses were designed and built by Ross, why would you expect them to be vastly different.
Pat- My only point here was that Plainfield and Wannamoisett and to a degree those I see at Siwanoy, #2 etc all look different then the four courses done in a short period of time by Prichard.  Not worse, not less of a hazard.  They look as though they were done by one hand and the other courses by a different hand.  Someone I think has left their own mark on the style  


How are the fairway bunkers on # 4 or # 18 at Wannamoissett so different from those at Mountain Ridge ?[/color]

As I said above, I could tell that a different hand did those and the same hand did MR, Aronomink, Skokie and Beverly

I found that odd and when I personally asked Ron about this he said to me with his own words that in the absence of full documentation (a paraphrase of his statement) he built them to what he thought was Ross' best work (that part of the statement is exact).  

What course was he referencing when he made that statement ?[/color]

I don't know.  He didn't say.  Since this was in Chicago my guess might be one of those courses but htat would only be a guess on my part

If those at MR are teh same as previously documented by drawings and photos then so be it.

I still prefer the courses I mentioned previously and find it odd that the styles at Wannamousett and Plainfield differ from the four courses done by Prichard.

Geoff, your preferences are YOUR preferences.

Do you find the bunkers at Bethpage the same as those at Baltusrol Upper or San Franscisco ?[/color]

Tillinghast was brilliant in his bunkering and more then any architect I know of changed his artistic style with almost each course.  Sommerset, SFGC, Bethpage, Winged Foot, Newport are so different.  It's one reason I find his work so appealing and why I love his courses so much

Enough - We'll discuss it further over a Pastrami on Rye with a Cream soda. My treat come up where I work and it will be fully blessed  

As a Goy, and without offending Mitchell Cooper, do you mind if I take a tuna on whole wheat toast ?  I love cream soda.[/color]

Pat - rest assured that where I work the tuna fish and everything else is fully blessed by the rabbi. You can have the roast chicken, chicken soup with matzoh balls or anything else but guaranteed that the spare ribs will not be pork! I hope THAT doesn't offend YOU  

[HamiltonBHearst]

       Mitchell Cooper, your arguments are the most ridiculous and absurd I have ever seen.  You are kidding me aren't you?  All clubs should provide kosher food?  Now I have heard it all.  What other cuisines must be provided as proof that the clubs and members do not discriminate?  Indian food? Italian?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoff,

How would you evaluate the bunker work done at Point Judith ?

Is it similar to Mountain Ridge and Aronomink ?

I think you also have to view bunkering in the context of it's environment.  Does the land-drainage permit the digging of pits ?  Or do foundations have to be created above grade to house the bunker ?

When comparing bunkers, don't you have to compare their style ?  Many Ross courses, including Mountain Ridge have different bunker styles-types throughout the golf course, so I'm not so sure that you can categorize all of the bunkers on a given course with one convenient label or prototype.

Why should Ron Prichard be criticized for restoring the bunkers at Mountain Ridge to their previous look-configuration ?

That's what he was supposed to do and he succeeded.

Everyone seems satisfied with the work except you, Redanman and Tom MacWood.  That alone would lead me to conclude that the job was well done  

I assure you that I could point out bunkers at Mountain Ridge that you, Redanman and Tom MacWood couldn't identify who the architect was without prior knowledge.

And, even with the knowledge that Ron Prichard was the architect, without viewing prior photos, the three of you couldn't tell what was or wasn't done to each of the bunkers.

Preferences, like styles aren't debatable.
You like what you like, and I'm not trying to change your mind, but, when a restoration was well done, within the confines permited by the membership, and it gets criticized, I have to defend it.  And such is the case at Mountain Ridge.
Ron did an exceptional job, to the extent he was permited to do so.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat

Let me make this perfectly clear. I am not criticisizing the restoration at Mountain Ridge.

I am only saying that I found it odd that TO MY EYE those four courses now have bunkers that I could pick out as being done by the same hand while at the same time other Ross courses that I am familiar with do not share the same look. This has nothign to do with the quality of the work or their ability to act as hazards as intended by Ross. I also know what I heard Ron say in response to my question.  Somewhere along the line liberties were taken with regard to style.  That's fine with me if that was necessary. I loved Aronomink and I really liked the other three courses.  Recall that I am a vocal supporter of Bethpage in spite of the lack of total restoration of the look of the bunkers.  They play beautifully and as previously before the work. I happen to like Siwanoy, Wannamoisett and Plainfied better from an architectural sense.  The holes and green complexes suit my tastes better.  That takes nothing away from MR.  Was that perfectly clear?

I don't know anything about Point Judith.

[T_MacWood]

"I can't speak to the 1912 version of the golf course because I've never seen photos taken on or around that date."

Pat
Was Ross's design in 1930 a redesign of the 1912 course or wholely new design? If I'm not mistaken Herbert Strong was involved at Mountain Ridge at some point.