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Matt_Ward

What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« on: June 09, 2005, 12:51:46 PM »
I am in the middle of a trip through the mountain time zone and a number of new courses have popped up on the scene.

One of them being Pradera by Jim Engh -- located in Parker --which is about one hour from the downtown area of Denver.

Pradera is a private golf club and the layout is a clear testament to the evolving nature of what Jim Engh is now designing.

Unlike his earliest designs such as Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction, Pradera encapsulates a range of repeat aspects that Engh has done plus a few new wrinkles that certainly caught my fancy and IMHO are well done.

Pradera plays just under 7,300 yards and with the altitude there are holes where the golfer can gain a significant advantage -- provided you play the hole with courage and sound execution.

Engh has added a number of uphill holes which serve to mitigate the effects of altitude -- they also are a key ingredient in the range of hole offerings you find at Pradera -- the balance of par-4, par-3 and par-5 holes is done well and you need to assess very carefully the demands presented.

Once again -- Engh provides five par-5 and five par-3 holes in the overall routing. The combo works well here.

The first hole sets the tone -- a slightly downhill drive to a banked dog-leg right par-5 of 553 yards. The hole can be reached in two but the drive is particularly pinched in at the 200-220 mark. The slightest push can easily be captured by the solitary bunker that protects that side. The green is also neatly shaped with a large frontal bunker serving like a do watching over a junkyard -- it needs to be avoided at all costs.

Time doesn't permit me at this moment to go into full details right now. However, Pradera is proof that Engh is now evolving certain new dimensions into his skills but there are still some aspects, like any architect, where he needs to avoid repetition in certain practices -- to wit -- the containment mounding used at green sites and the lack of real diversity in the par-4 category. When you have layouts in which you have 10 toal par-5 / par-3 holes it forces the architect to maximize the array and dimensions of the par-4 holes you have left (8).

Pradera is not sloped or course rated yet -- however -- I see it being 138 or so from the tips with a 74.0 CR.

More to follow on Pradera plus the following ...

Antler Creek (CO's longest course at 8,100+ yards !!!)
Snowmass
Lakota Canyon Ranch (return visit)
Soldier Hollow (UT)
Rochelle Ranch (WY)
Sandia (NM)
Sanctuary (return visit)
Highland Meadows
Red Hawk Ridge

Kirk Gill

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2005, 12:55:25 PM »
What is  your opinion of Engh's Fossil Trace course?


I am in the middle (hopefully) of a life in the mountain time zone...........
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2005, 01:04:56 PM »
Kirk:

Fossil Trace is a split situation for me. I enjoyed the first four holes -- however -- the bulk of the remaining holes on the front side are rather pedestrian -- particularly the lame par-3 5th hole which has to rate as one of Engh's weakest efforts.

However --

It's on the back side where Fossil Trace excels even though the total amount of land is smaller than the front. Engh skillfully weaves the player through a series of good holes. The course is not at the level of say Redlands Mesa and certainly not of the caliber of Lakota Canyon Ranch.

There has been much criticism -- unfounded I might add -- of the par-5 12th hole. Which is well done as Engh incoporated old stone slabs into the make-up of the hole. It's truly a unique hole with a wide variety of strategic elements. Ditto the par-4 13th which follows.

The thing to keep in mind is that Fossil Trace is a well done taxpayer-owned course. There's enough balance to hold the interest of different players -- is it at the level of the top tier taxpayer owned courses in the USA? No, it's not, however, it's better than the overwhelming number of such courses and given what's charged it's well worth the time to play it when in Golden and the surrounding Denver area.

Hope the info I provided helps ...

P.S. If you are in the Denver area try to keep Antler Creek on your radar screen in Falcon -- just outside of Colorado Springs. Although the greens still need some serious attention. More info upcoming ...

A_Clay_Man

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2005, 01:50:05 PM »
Haven't been down to the Sandia Pueblo, yet. When's it open?

One interesting last minute change at Antler Creek, was the reversal of the nines. In this case I agree with the change. What you think Matt?

 Did you ever make it to Rio Grande Club?

And,

My spies at The Hideout tell me it's a world of difference this year, conditionwise. However there were some issues relating to the el nino rains, mostly affecting cart path, thank g-d.

Jeff_Mingay

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2005, 04:28:09 PM »
Matt,

Speaking of Parker, Coore and Crenshaw have started building the Colorado Golf Club there.
jeffmingay.com

Tony_Chapman

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2005, 04:33:43 PM »
Matt - I will be anxious to here your views on Red Hawk Ridge in Castle Pines (or Rock, whatever it is). I found it very fun, but there is plenty of mounding on most of the holes I the front nine seems to work its way through some housing.

I found the back nine to be a fun, solid test and if I had to choose between the two Jim Engh's I have played to go back to (the other being Hawktree), I would pick RHR even though it's probably not as demanding on one's game as Hawktree.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Kevin_Reilly

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2005, 05:52:53 PM »
Matt, if you have time a trip to Ballyneal in Holyoke, CO could be interesting.  Course construction is under way.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Brad Swanson

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2005, 07:50:00 PM »
Tom Doak has/had a project south of Denver as well called The Canyons.  Not sure what the status of it is as its been nearly 2 years since I've walked the routing.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

Doug Wright

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2005, 08:32:59 PM »
Matt,

I think you're hitting what's new here in the Centennial State.
Look forward to your view of Highland Meadows (Schaupeter), which I walked before construction but haven't played. :'(

I'm very hurt you didn't let me know of your plans to visit us.  :-X >:( ;)

Kirk,

Give Fossil Trace a try. The back nine through the quarry is pretty unique; I liked the front nine better than Matt (especially the 5th hole... ;D)

Tony,

Red Hawk Ridge has a few good holes on the back but I thought was pretty pedestrian overall. Fossil Trace, a later Engh effort, is MUCH better.

Best,
Twitter: @Deneuchre

cary lichtenstein

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2005, 10:48:42 PM »
Bette and I will be right behind Matt starting June 17th. We will be in Snowmass for 7 weeks in case anyone wants to play with us. ;D
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2005, 01:15:21 PM »
A number of you have raised some interesting questions / suggestions.

Let me further elaborate on the uniqueness of the new Engh design at Pradera in Parker.

The course does have a number of Engh embellishments and many of them do fit. What I really like about Engh designs is that hazards are indeed HAZARDS. If you land in one of his bunkers it's a likely bet you won't have the formulaic flat easy-to-play bunker shot. The sides of the bunker are quite steep and althoug the sand is usually at the botton portion in a strip layout -- the probability in getting out with ease is never a sure bet.

The other aspect that makes Pradera successful is the inclusion of uphill holes -- a rarity for many architects and something that Engh has avoided in many of his designs. I'm glad he included a few here because the teeth of the course is where you find these holes.

The uphill par-4 4th is a brute and well done -- it plays beyond 456 listed yards -- ditto the uphill long par-5 12th and equally long par-4 14th. Each of these holes requires the player to hit the ball in a pure fashion.

For those who prefer the swashbuckling Engh you have a number of holes that will add to the experience. The downhill split fairway par-5 7th is a gem of a hole. Standing on the tee is like Dante high above the infernal abyss. You have to choose which fairway to play to and be able to execute.

Engh does overplay the containment mounding aspect by a few of the greens -- I would like to see less of that and it seems he often does this on a number of his par-4 type holes -- the 6th at Pradera is a good example -- the downhill long par-4 13th at Lakota Canyon Ranch is another example.

All of the par-3 holes at Pradera are quite good -- I really enjoyed the scenic par-3 15th -- it fits as naturally as one can expect for the location it provides.

The long par-5 16th is often mentioned when coming to Pradera and at 600+ yards the tee box is 200 feet above the fairway -- Engh does provide a number of pot bunkers in the drive zone but another bunker should be included even further down -- reminscent of what Doak does at #3 at Pac Dunes. I hit a driver with a helping wind and reached the 150 yard plate and had easy PW into the green. One other note -- the views from the tee are incredible -- Pikes Peak dominates the southern flank.

The 18th is a grand closer because here again you face a split fairway with a diabolical fairway bunker that serves to split one from the other. YOU CANNOT LAND IN THIS BUNKER. It will not permit the long recovery unless the ball is dead-center in the bunker.

All in all, Pradera has plenty of design qualities that make for a fun round of golf. It provides a healthy balance between the needs of club members but still has enough sharp teeth to bite the better player. Those fortunate to play it should hustle to the first tee.

More to come on Antler Creek and what Rick Phelps has done there.

p.s. It's a helluva round for 8,100+ yards!!! I only wish the par-3 quality that Rick provided at Devil's Thumb was there at Antler Creek.

Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2005, 07:57:41 PM »
There has been much discussion -- especially from the people I've met in Colorado concerning the new Rick Phelps design in Falcon called Antler Creek.

It's primary "claim to fame" is its length -- 8,100+ yards -- the longest course in the state.

However, the qualities of the layout go way beyond its length. In addition, the course sports a 77.5 CR and 146 slope, if memory serves.

Phelps is the designer of Devil's Thumb in Delta -- an affordable design that finished in second place nationally behind Rustic Canyon among the Digest best new layouts.

Rick has a good eye for hole development and while the budget at DT was quite small I was eagerly looking forward to his work at Antler Creek.

The first thing to keep in mind when coming to the facility is the EXPLOSION of houses that abut the course. Every where you turn you see more and more houses being built. One would think that with so much housing the course would be a waste of time.

Guess again ...

Antler Creek is blessed with a wash that cuts into play on a number of holes. In addition, Rick has added greens that move in different directions and are skillfully protetced by a range of obstacles.

Unfortunately, the main issue Antler faces is getting all of its greens up to shape. They are s-l-o-w-l-y recovering and will need some time.

Time doesn't permit me to explore in greater detail the number of top notch holes there but if you are looking for a bargain let me just add this.

You can play Antler during the week for two people for $69 and that includes green fees, cart, balls to hit at the driving range AND lunch. The same deal applies on weekends after 1:00 PM for just ten dollars more.


Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2005, 12:24:00 PM »
Couple of thoughts on Antler Creek.

The layout by Rick Phelps is well done even with the housing issues that dominate the landscape. An eventual third nine is also be contemplated to bring the total to 27 holes.

The aspect that makes Antler Creek so compelling is the need for sound driving. There is width at Antler Creek to accomodate the length and wind that blows through the property.

Even with the 6,000+ foot elevation the player must maneuver the tee shots into the proper position.

The first two holes are good but it's at the 3rd where Antler Creek really comes alive. Here you have a dog-leg left that simply grabs you by the throat. The hole is well protected by a series of bunkers in the drive zone. And there is a hint of a "cape" type hole as the player must decide how much of the corner to cut -- baring in ming a wash that cuts near the drive zone. The green is also neatly contoured to maximize pinpoint iron play.

Antler Creek has a number of unique bunkers that guard the optimum playing areas. You can stay away from the more pressing demands but the following shot only intensifies with demands.

Among the best stretch of public holes you can play in Colorado starts with the 9th through the 12th at Antler Creek. In order you play 480 / 4 par, 645 / 5 par, 465 / 4 par, and 518 / 4 par. Each of these holes requires the highest level of driving skill as you must not only work the ball off the tee but have sufficient distance to avoid putting increased pressure on your approaches. For those who rather play from shorter distances the qualities of the holes just mentioned stays 100% intact.

I don't have the time to adequately explain each hole but the lone issue that might hold Antler Creek back in the minds of some is the lack of diversity among the par-3's. Phelps did a solid job at Devil's Thumb -- who can forget the green that runs away at the 4th and the redan like qualities of the 17th at the layout in Delta, CO. Here at Antler Creek the par-3's are simply muscular in terms of texture and lack any real differences that mattered to me.

Nonetheless, Antler Creek is much more than a course of appropriate length given its location in Falcon, CO -- there is a high degree of requirement with the driver -- a skill, I believe, needs to be highlighted more in public play through the use of well-placed tees to increase playing angle demands while also keeping one's distance at the necessary level.

It will be interesting to see if and when the putting surfaces are straightened out. The golf course has plenty of reasons to visit. I certainly am looking forward in returning to see if such progress is being made because the layout by Phelps is one that needs to be played when all the dust settles.

A_Clay_Man

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2005, 01:38:40 PM »
Matt- The third green was the one Rick was nervous about. He thought it bordered on the severe, and that they might lynch him. I know he'll be grateful for your review.

While I haven't golfed it yet, Rick did point out the driving demands that Matt speaks of. They come in the form of subtle differences in just a few yards. A few yards this way or that, and the view of the putting surface maybe partially or totally obscurred.

Another of the subleties that Rick showed me, were specifc areas when challenging the blindness, was rewarded. Not all that much ample room, laterally, but enough to be able to use the ground to get in a proper position, for your next.

As for the greens conditions, this to shall pass, no doubt. Afterall, this is the leeward side of Pike's Peak which is basically high desert with difficult growing conditions. Pikes Peak dominates some of the more spiritual vistas, Rick was able to get in.

The course has interesting origins. Two separate housing developers joined, and hired The Phelps firm to create what's now Antler creek. So, without them houses, there'd be no course.

A lesser of evils, indeed.

Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2005, 06:23:48 PM »
Adam:

Too many courses in the Mountain area sometimes feature excessively wide fairways without providing for some sort of optimum placement / position. Antler does that.

The chief weakness is the par-3's -- they are muscular and having one of shorter distance would have fitted in quite nicely. Thing of the 7th at Devil's Thumb being a good example.

The issue with the putting greens will be interesting to watch because they need to be a worthy addition to the time spent there.

All in all, Antler Creek has the potential to be among the top ten public courses in Colorado from the ones I have played. I would also like to see Bear Dance in Larkspur move a bit further up given its routing and location.

Antler Creek has two potential negative perceptions working against it -- the plethora of housing and the tag as being the longest course in Colorado -- the depth of the holes is indeed there and with just the right amount of tweaking will only improve.

As far as prices are concerned, Antler Creek is one of the best buys you can get in the USA. ;)


A_Clay_Man

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2005, 06:54:59 PM »

The chief weakness is the par-3's -- they are muscular and having one of shorter distance would have fitted in quite nicely. Thing of the 7th at Devil's Thumb being a good example.


matt, Clearly the opportunity for better par threes existed on the site in Delta. Elevation changes alone, allowed for the variety.

It's an intereting cog in the wheel when discussing the strengths of courses that traverse varied terrain.

Matthew Schulte

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2005, 12:54:40 AM »
Matt:

Antler Creek, despite the course conditioning, is without question the best public course in Colorado Springs.  Rick has created a fine course on a modest budget within the confines of a dense housing development.  I love the greenside surrounds.  The player missing to the safe spot often finds his/her ball well below the surface of the green to the extent that the following pitch/chip is somewhat blind. Heavy contours are often between these "bailout" areas and the center of the green.  He also did a very nice job of blending the "rugged bunkering" into the native areas.  The fairway bunkering comes very much into the line of play rather than simply acting as directional bunkering.  He also did a nice job of providing more room than meets the eye off several tees.

I would agree with your comment about the lack of diversity with the par 3s.  While none of them "look" the same, all three call for a fade.  Short and left is the safe miss on all 4 par 3s.

Last summer, shortly after opening, the rough beside the bunkers was so thick a lost ball was all but guaranteed.  This made an already tough driving test quite demoralizing in windy conditions.  

What were your thoughts on the par 5 15th?  I have never seen anyone carry the hazard in two and almost everyone struggles with the blind layup to an unpredictable fairway sloping toward the diagonal hazard.  Players almost never aim far enough to the left with their layup.  That is the hole I hear the most complaints on from people I have been paired up with.

I generally love split fairway holes as they obviously offer choice.  However, I find the feature somewhat redundant with two short par 4s coming almost back to back in the routing at 16 and 18.  In both cases there really isn't a great incentive to take the aggressive line unless of course you prefer the awkward 40 yard pitch shot.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2005, 01:05:25 AM by Matthew Schulte »

Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2005, 06:45:13 PM »
Matt S:

The bar for Antler Creek isn't about being the best public course in the Colorado Springs area -- I would think the bar is a good bit higher given what the layout does have to offer.

Let me highlight the fact that two of the four par-3's 8th on th Elk and the 8th on White Tail are near exact copies of each other. Both have water angling in from the right and the shots are basically the same -- albeit the one on White Tail is roughly 20 yards longer.

The only par-3 of substance is IMHO the 4th on White Tail. Here the green is neatly contoured to repel anything that comes in with too much pace. Might it have been possible to have a very short but demanding hole in the 150 yard vicinity -- even from the tips ?

I completely concur with the density of the rough. The bluegrass is quite thick and any ball that happens to nestle down will have problems in the recovery.

The par-5 15th hole is indeed a bear of a hole. I played it into a headwind and it took me two full metal club shots plus a 7-iron my 3rd to get home. The wind was indeed howling. Frankly, I wish there were also some diversity in the par-5's --all are beyond 600 yards -- in fact -- three of them are beyong 650 yards. Having a hole where the element of real risk'n reward is apart of the calculation would have been a nice added touch.

What I like about Antler Creek is the demands placed on the player to drive the ball.

The stretch of holes from the 9th on Elk (480 yards) to the first three on the back side (White Tail) -- 657, 475 and 538 and playing to a respective par of 5,4 & 4 -- makes for some of the most demanding and unique holes in all of the public courses I have played in Colorado.

I like the way Rick Phelps called upon the player to not only "work the ball" off the tee but the further you advance down the fairway the more accurate you must be. The 11th (2nd on White Tail) is one of the best holes I have played this year.

The tee shot must be faded accordingly and the slightest push will enter the Elvis zone -- as in "DEAD." The green is also set nicely on a soft angle that encourages a fine approach shot being the only recourse.

Ditto the demands of the following hole -- Phelps does provide a "tongue fairway" for the longest hitter but the drive must be laser-like in order to avoid the junk area to the left.

Antler Creek has the muscles and the long holes -- especially the diversity and range of the long par-4's is well done. I was hoping to see a much wider range of holes from the par-3 and par-5 areas.

Nonetheless, Antler Creek is clearly a candidate for top public state honors ONCE the greens are straightened out.  

P.S. -- I salute Rick being able to work into play the wash you encounter throughout the layout. It is well done and for a course with minimum pitch & roll there is plenty of substance even with the plethora of homes that engulf the site.

One last thing -- they need to straighten out the odor that comes from the nearby water treatment plant.


Jim Franklin

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2005, 09:29:55 AM »
Matt -

I agree with your assessment of Pradera as Engh did a wonderful job with the uphill/downhill holes, the greensites were interesting, and the bunkering was superb. I really enjoyed the par 3 15th and then the tee shot on 16 was pretty spectacular. It was nice for them to add the pictures of the various peaks and their heights as a historical reference. The guys I played with had just got back from Sand Hills and all thought parts of the course reminded them of Sand Hills (sans houses). I certainly got that feeling on a few holes as well.

When are you coming down to Five Farms?
Mr Hurricane

Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2005, 12:14:53 PM »
Jim:

Let me know what your availability is when we get past the July 4 holiday period.

Gents:

Let me also mention another course worthy of attention -- Rochelle Ranch in Rawlins, WY.

Designed by Ken Kavanaugh (Murphy's Creek in Auroroa, C), to name just one example of his work) the course came into existence through a generous gift from Curt and Marian Rochelle -- they are residents of Rawlins. Unfortunately, Mr. Rochelle just passed away this year but the legacy of the course that bears his name will live on for quite some time.

The facility is about four hours in drive time from Denver. In fact, the layout is immediately adjacent to I-80 and can be seen easily from the highway.

How reasonable is the course?

One of the best bargains in all the USA IMHO.

Green fees on M-TH are $20 -- all day play is just $5 more.

Cart rentals for 18 holes are $20 but the course is very easily walked.

Weekend fees are just $22 -- annual memberships for a single adult is $275 !!!!!!!!! They pay that much at a number of public clubs I know just to have the car valet handle the parking. ;D

How good is the golf?

Easily among the best new offerings in the affordable category in the nation although there is a drainage issue that has compromised a few holes, but which will be rectified shortly.

Rochlle Ranch embodies the principle that width should be included for a site that faces heavy wind in most instances. The day I was there was simply ideal -- temps in the mid-60's with wind roughly at 10 mph.

Kavanaugh took the existing land and simply created holes to fit what was already there. The town previously owned the land and the 300 acres were put to good use by the architect.

Each hole has five tee boxes and the course can play to a max of 7,925 yards -- called the Horseshoe tees for good luck for the golfer!

In addition, you will find all sorts of ranch artifacts (fences, posts, broken equipment) left on the course to compliment the historic touch.

The clubhouse is a simple but effective building and you don't get all the hype / jazz that deflects away from the reason that brings you there.

Rochelle Ranch gives the golfer plenty of width but there are preferred sides to approach the greens.

Kavanaugh did a solid effort at Murphy's Creek but here at Rochelle Ranch the intensity and strategic calculations have been magnified to full effect.

To illustrate just one example the 444-yard 4th has to rate as one of the best gambling holes I have played in quite some time. The hole is bommerrang dog-leg left. You can play safely by playing the hole in a conservative fashion. If you opt to go that way you will encounter a huge fairway bunker that engulfs the middle of the hole. Should you escape that --there is another bunker that sits at greenside directly in line for you approach.

If you should take the gamble -- you can reach the green from the tee but it's nothing less than a 260-yard direct carry over water from the tips. In addition, the 260-yard carry is only for the small piece of land that stick out as a landing zone similar to an aircraft carrier for a returning jet.

If you push it slightly or pull it you will be wet. The actual green sits further back from the carry point -- at roughly 310 yards. I hit a 3-metal and reached the target but the conditions were not that windy for me to do it. I can easily see a situation where heavy blowing wind would preclude the gamble for all expect those with brass ones.

At Rochelle Ranch you face a range of unique and exciting holes.

Following the 4th the 5th is a superb par-3 of 217 yards. The tee shot is played to a green that is deliciously contoured from right-to-left and runs away from the tee. Only the mot well-played of shots can hold the target. The hole is reminiscent of anything you will encounter at Sand Hills in Mullen, NE and that is not hype or bomblast on my part.

The next hole continue the quality meter as it plays 653 yards as a par-5.

The hole has a fairway at least 60 yards across -- there is also a huge bunker that protects the favored right side and it looks like it's been there forever.

Once in the fairway you then must decide how far to play the second shot -- keeping in mind -- that the architect has angled a completely natural sage brush area from the left to creep closer and closer to the target line the further down the fairway you proceed. WHAT A SUPERB INTRODUCTION OF SUCH A NATIVE ELEMENT!!!

The green falls off gently on all sides and the approach must be kept below the hole if at all possible.

Rochelle Ranch does have drainange issues from water that that escaped a pond and flooded several of the holes. The facility plans on rectifying this quickly and when that happens you will have another layout of distinction -- from a design and price perspective.

Much has been made of Wild Horse being located just off I-80 and being such a unique and quality layout.

All I can say is that Rochelle Ranch is now a candidate of no less quality and one any architectural fan of wide fairway, native grasses, sweeping putting surfaces and well-placed hazards will thoroughly enjoy.

Tale of the tape ...
*indicates hole were drainage issues need to be rectified.

1st - 475 yards
2nd - 465 yards
3rd - 217 yards
4th - 444 yards
5th - 653 yards
6th - 211 yards
7th - 498 yards
8th - 433 yards
*9th - 575 yards

*10th - 440 yards
11th - 173 yards
12th - 515 yards
13th - 640 yards
*14th - 423 yards
*15th - 455 yards
16th - 250 yards
17th - 565 yards
18th - 493 yards  

Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2005, 08:34:00 PM »
For those searching for the link to Rochelle Ranch -- go to the following linkage --

www.rawlins-wyoming.com

When you get to the site -- look for the golf course link and click on it. There are pictures and schematics of all the holes.

Truly, a well crafted routing / design by Ken Kavanaugh and the price is one of the best bargains you can get anywhere in the USA.

Steve_ Shaffer

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2005, 10:26:13 PM »
Matt

Thanks for the report. I'm planning a CO trip this summer and hopefully it won't be cancelled as it was last year. I'm going to try to play Pradera,Red Sky Norman, Lakota & Redlands Mesa. I'll save Rochelle Ranch for another visit.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2005, 02:20:32 PM »
Steve:

Be sure to play Lakota and Norman's layout at Red Sky. I see both of these courses among the best public offerings in all of Colorado.

Just keep in mind the sticker shock when you go play Norman's layout in Wolcott.

It's clearly not cheap and Lakota is a bargain many times over.

One other note -- Redlands Mesa is a fun layout but in real terms the evolution of Engh can be clearly seen at Pradera and Lakota. Many of the features he threw into the micture with the layout in Grand Junction have been expanded upon and in many instances have results in more challenging and unique layouts.

P.S. Rochelle Ranch is certainly a layout you and others here on GCA need to play. It is fashioned with wide fairways, natural looking bunkers and appropriately contoured putting surfaces. Once they correct the drainage situation on the holes I already noted the totality of what is there will only improve further.

Matt_Ward

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2005, 08:34:34 PM »
The State of Colorado has to be saluted as a winning exaple in the creation of a range of outstanding public courses. It's hard for me to conceive of a state that has as many quality public courses -- for a very fair price structure and with so much variety in terms of designers, topography, configurations, routing and overall shot values.

Just north of Denver there is a movement to include an array of different public courses. Among the more noted were two that I played ... Highland Meadows in Windsor and Vista Ridge in Erie.

Highland Meadows is the design product of Art Schaupeter -- formerly he worked for Keith Foster.

Highland Meadows plays 7,011 yards from the tips and has a71.9 CR and 128 slope.

What makes the course fascinating is that despite a site that is at best mediocre in terms overall land quality the totality of what Schaupeter produced is quite good -- in some instances even outstanding.

The land is slightly rolling and fairly nondescript. Without question the work of the superintendent and hsstaff deserve high marks as the grow-infor the course took place so quickly and effectively that one wouldbe hard pressed to think that the course is new.

Schaupeter borrows a tendency from his association with Foster as the greens sweep in such a clear and unique style. There are no abrupt ridges or elevation changes but the greens do have significant movement while at the same time being sufficiently large enough to handle the sweeping winds that can easily take place while playing.

Many of the bunkers are fairly pedestrian in their overall placement and their appearance is more formulaic than unique. When one's eye looks just off the existing property you see natural blow-out areas of sand that should have been introduced to the actual course itself. In a number of way Highland Meadows provides a "refined" look rather than a windswept wild and wooly landscape that I believe wold have added even more ummmph to the setting.

Nonetheless, the blending of the holes is wel done. The routing takes you through all corners of the property and there are a range of holes and situations that make the golfer play a comprehensive array of shots.

I particularly enjoyed the change of pace requirements that Schaupeter provided. At the 3rd you have a 475-yard par-4 that moves right and demands power and placement.The next hole is 143 yards and is well done as the green sweeps so gently but persistently like waves in an ocean. It is also very easy to putt off this green if your stroke gets a little frisky.

At the 5th you have a long par-5 of 572 yards that can be reached in two when the conditions permit -- but the two strokes had best be air tight in their quality. The 6th is a well done dog-leg left of 456 yards and the #1 handicap hole. There is a bunker that guards the preferred left side and fortunately for me I played the hole with a helping wind. Generally, the hole plays dead into the prevailing windand the characteristics of what is there can be dramatically different.

The ending 9th hole is also well done. At only 371 yards Schaupeter provides for a semi-split fairway. You can opt for the safer left side but the ensuing shot becomes longer and the angle more demanding. If you opt for the far right side you encounter a water hazard that lurks for the easy push shot that may be played. The green is also a treat and when the pin is maxed to the far right as it was when I played the water seems to be within a foot or two of where the pin is located.

The back nine is not as demanding or as keenly routed as the front. That doesn't mean there are pedestrian holes but the overall attention to high octane design is just not as consistently present IMHO.

I especially liked the par-4 14th at 464 yards and the 518 yard par-4 15th. The 14th is a slight dog-leg right and it requires a tee shot that works in concert with the manner by which the land is shaped. The green is set nicely below the fairway and again you encounter a sweeping green that fits as snugly as a winter blanket on a bed during cold climes.

The gambling par-5 15th plays slightly uphill and is a dog-leg right. Here you have a series of fairway bunkers that protect the favoredr right side and all the work is done very well. The reward can be taken but only if the risk is played well.

The head professional mentioned to me about the possibility of the nines changing their position and I frankly think the overall hole routing / scheme would be better for it.

Highland Meadows is a fun course and from what I heard a secon 18, also by Schaupeter will be done on another site owned by the same group a bit further east closer to the mountains.

If you want to see a very stylish but clean presentation of greens the work at Highland Meadows will not disappoint. I look forward to seeing more work by Schaupeter when the opportunity arises to get a site that offers a good bit more.

Time doesn't permit me to go into Vista Ridge at this moment. But in my next post I'll analyze this unique and demanding Jay Moorish work for TroonGolf.

Brad Swanson

Re:What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2005, 08:57:38 PM »
Matt,
   I'm glad to hear Art's project turned-out well.  Art invited Doug Wright and I to walk the course about a year ago and we were impressed with the work in progress.  Its nice to meet an up and comer like Art and I hope he gets many more chances to work his craft.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

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