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Steve_ Shaffer

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DL III on golf
« on: June 09, 2005, 11:24:23 AM »
Steve Pike, the golf business writer at pga.com interviews DL3 of Titleist. Surprisingly, Davis Love is in the Brad Faxon camp:

Spike on Golf: Love speaks welcome truth about high-tech golf gear
Davis Love III firmly disagrees with those who say that modern clubs and balls hurt the game.

www.pga.com/news/features/spikeongolf/spike060605.cfm

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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John Keenan

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2005, 11:37:51 AM »
How much does Titleist pay him a year for club,ball,bag cap etc?  

Hardly what one could call a non-bias view of the issue. That in and of itself does not make his view wrong but does make one take pause and question.

The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Rick Shefchik

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2005, 12:05:06 PM »
This exchange between Love and Steve "Spike" Pike (whoever he is) is even more spectacularly obtuse than the SI round table. I hardly know where to begin -- after lifting my head off my desk from repeated poundings.

Love: "I don't think the game is ruined. The average guy really understands that no matter what you do with the ball, if you roll it back 20 percent, Tiger Woods is still going to be pretty good and he's still going to hit it a long way. He's still going to hit it longer than anybody else."

Oddly enough, Davis, that's what we're told the average guy does NOT understand when a rollback is proposed. Of course Tiger is still going to be longer. No one is trying to bring him back to the pack. We're trying to keep the game from outgrowing its playing fields.

Love: "I don't think you're really going to affect anything other than maybe make Tiger hit a 6-iron in rather than a 7, and I don't think that really changes anything."

Huh? It changes EVERYTHING. It returns the long iron and the difficult-to-hold green to the pro game, rather than the bomb-and-wedge game Love and his fellow top-tier pros are playing now. It's boring golf, Davis. Boring.

Love: "We'd have to back up a heck of a lot of golf courses -- a lot of the ones I've been building. We play 7,500-yard golf courses and 490-yard par 4s, so if you roll the ball back 20 percent you're going to move the tees up. There's a lot more to it than just saying the golf ball goes too far."

Ah, there's the self-interest. Love is a course designer, and a wealthy, wealthy man. Of course he sees no reason why golf courses shouldn't be 7,500 or 8,000 yards. Why not 9,000? There's always more land somewhere, no matter how remote or expensive it is.

And this idiot Pike (who also manages to work in a slam at George Bush in a relatively short piece) concludes the article by saying he'd like to give Love a standing ovation for being a rare voice of reason. He's not rare at all. He's all too common.

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

JESII

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2005, 12:07:42 PM »
DITTO!

Kevin_Reilly

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2005, 01:26:00 PM »
How much does Titleist pay him a year for club,ball,bag cap etc?  

Speculation at the time he signed a new deal with Titleist (a few years ago) was nearly $50 million over 10 years.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Dan Kelly

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2005, 03:33:58 PM »
You don't suppose the PGA of America has a vested interest in opposing controls on Balls and Implements, do you?

PGA.com isn't journalism, of course; it's PR.

And I say the hell with it.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Phil_the_Author

Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2005, 04:23:51 PM »
He is also NOT a "voice of reason," which is a phrase that carries an intended meaning of a wise person whose words should be given greater credence to. Rather he is just a player with a perspective, and in my opinion, with one that is very incorrect and reflects a lack of understanding of the issue.

This is a problem that has plagued the game and affected the fields on which it is played since the boomin golf in America back in the teens of the 20th century. Many notables were complaining about the distance the golf ball travels and how long holes needed to be constructed to allow for challenging play. And that, after all, is the key.

Challenging play. When the very average plaer views a 350 yard hole as short and not a challenge then the question of whether or not technology has effected the game is answered. That is the state we are in today.

The problem with the long-hitting professionals hitting the ball astronomical distances is more a concern in the public's demand of defining the best, the champion, and how that can be measured. It has no bearing on the PGA tour and whether it is "boring golf." Quite frankly, the tour is alive and doing very well for itself and its players routinely impressing crowds with 64's and 20-under victors.

No, IMHO, the real question of "challenging play" is really found in three events, only two of which have a belief in actually challenging the players to some extent. The Open, the U.S. Open and the PGA.

We all pretty much recognize that the only course on the Open rota that has a vested interest in proving it's merit through brutal scoring conditions is Carnoustie. Any of the other venues will easily accept as the "Champion Golfer of the Year," someone who plays four rounds in 14 or 15 under par.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, we all also know that the USGA dearly wants par as a winning score protected if at all possible. Then the PGA has been somewhere in between striking what they always feel is a fair balance between the two, though they also seem to be wanting Mr. Par a little better protected now.

Augusta and the Masters should play no part in this as score has always meant far less to them than tradition and the crowning of a champion after an exciting Sunday back nine that is where "The Matsres really begins." They love their eagled par-fives, near aces on 16 and disasters on 11 & 12 to balance them out. & under or 17 under matters nothing as much as whether the victor deserves to wear the green jacket.

So that really brings us to the heart of the argument - is the need to have the grand old venues that are now too short to be able to "protect par" against the onslaught of technology greater than the thrills and dynamics that technology has created through distance?

I say yes. I want Opens at Merion and I also want Bethpage Black to beat up the big boys as well.

All of a sudden, after all of that writing, I feel like Tom Paul.

Jeff Shelman

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2005, 09:26:32 PM »
Phillip,

I'd like to see the Open at classic venues as well, but the ball and the clubs aren't the real reason why many courses are now obsolete. There is, after all, one thing the USGA likes more than protecting par. That's making money.

The reality is that many classic courses won't ever see the open again because they don't have enough space. You have to have space for the corporate chalets and all of that stuff. You have to have space between holes so they can sell 40,000 tickets. You have to have parking, etc. That, unfortunately, more than anything is why some great courses won't host the open.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2005, 10:12:02 PM »
Jeff Shelman,

Are you suggesting that the Open only be attended by the host club's members and guests ?

How would you suggest that the USGA fund the Junior Amateurs, the Senior Amateurs, the Mid Amateurs and the Amateurs ?

How would you suggest that they fund turf research ?

How would you suggest that they fund their operating and capital budgets ?   Their staffing ?

How would you suggest that they fund a legal defense fund ?

Come up with a better solution before you criticize their policies and practices.

Joe Hancock

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2005, 10:33:09 PM »
Come up with a better solution before you criticize their policies and practices.

What did Jeff propose as a solution? Did I miss something, or is there some reading between the lines?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kevin_Reilly

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2005, 11:34:29 PM »
Come up with a better solution before you criticize their policies and practices.

What did Jeff propose as a solution? Did I miss something, or is there some reading between the lines?

Joe

I'm mystified as well.  Jeff appeared to make a reasonable observation, and his opinion may be incorrect in and of itself, but again it appeared reasonable.  

The questions directed at him seemed to come out of left field....almost non sequiturs.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jim Thompson

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2005, 11:40:02 PM »

Boy, I hate to stick my nose in this and ask for the thrashing, but I'm bored.  So here goes.

In response to Pat's questions-

Are you suggesting that the Open only be attended by the host club's members and guests ?

No, but four day corporate packages and the schmoozeathon that goes with them could be done somewhere else.  20,000 guests over 4 days would be just fine by me.  The space needed for the tents and sales pitch really should go.  For the good of the game the big tourneys should be played at the best courses, not those with the greatest earnings potential.  Consider how many are watching it on closed circuit in the air conditioned tent at the venue during the tournament already.

How would you suggest that the USGA fund the Junior Amateurs, the Senior Amateurs, the Mid Amateurs and the Amateurs ?

What's to fund?  Can't be the prize money, as they are all amateur events.  So is it event staffing and admin.  Most courses can put on event with minimal extra costs, they do it every week.  If all the participants are USGA members it should be the easiest outing of a courses season. A reasonable entry fee ought to cover that.  If even a penny goes toward any kind of set-up costs, we should all reconsider our memberships.  Hell I'd give my track just to host one, provided they didn't make me change the course conditions and it would be a very good test.  It be great press and cheaper than the PR for a rating.  (I know I shouldn’t have said that yet.)

How would you suggest that they fund turf research?

I'd leave this to the folks at Simplot, MSU and PSU.  Handing over to them the listing of supers in the country for feedback and surveying.  I bet if the GCSAA were responsible for real expectations in conditioning, costs would go down and set-ups would go back to normal.

How would you suggest that they fund their operating and capital budgets?  Their staffing?

Uh, membership fees like every other club in the world.  Given the fees billed to state golf associations and courses for specialized services, revenue shouldn't be a problem.  Unless of course some folks are making a lot more than they should for what they do or the service they provide.

How would you suggest that they fund a legal defense fund?

Through insurance premiums like the rest of us.

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Jeff Shelman

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2005, 01:05:34 AM »
Goodness, you try to get work done for a couple of hours and stuff blows up.

You're right Patrick, only members and guests should be allowed to watch the open. Maybe it shouldn't be televised either.

C'mon.

This is just one guy's opinion, but the USGA and to a certain extent the PGA of America has simply followed the lead of the NCAA Final Four. It's gone from being a big event that made a lot of money to a massive event that makes gobs and gobs of money. There's a significant difference.

Do I blame either the NCAA or the USGA? No, there's certainly consumer demand for the product. But, at the same time, let's be honest about the whole thing.

Both events have simply outgrown many classic venues. For college basketball it means the Final Four is only going to be played in domes and the event will rotate through basically 8-10 locations. For the US Open, it means a host site needs to have either a ton of land for corporate entertainment or a second course that can be used for that. That's the case with nearly every site that's been announced.

It also means the majority of the Opens are going to be played near major population centers. I don't think it's a coincidence that we're in an eight-year stretch in which three US Opens (and a PGA) are being played in the NYC metro area.

I still think the USGA will go to the Midwest on occassion, but the days of the open being played in Rochester, NY or Toledo, Ohio are probably over. Why? The USGA has a much better idea of what kind of money the Open can make. And like any business/organization, it's hard for them to give that up once they've tasted it.

My point from the beginning was pretty simple and still believe it: The ability to hold everything now associated with the Open is a bigger detrement to classic courses than the golf ball.

Those classic courses are now getting the women's open or the senior open. The women's list is littered with former open venues (Cherry Hills this year, Newport in 06, Interlachen in 08 and Oakmont in 09).

One last thing, Patrick. It's not as if the USGA is really going broke or having to rub nickels together. Check out the TV deal with NBC: $20 million a year through 2008. How many millions do they make from ticket sales, corporate hospitality and merchandise from the Open? I'd love to know the answer to that question.


« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 01:09:34 AM by Jeff Shelman »

Sean_A

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2005, 03:31:15 AM »
Concerning DLIII, I would think his opinion of how the game is played because of equipment is much more relevant than opinions from folks who do not earn a living playing the game.  If people are going to whinge about equipment and boring courses ruining the spectator side of golf, then don't watch pro golf.  Should it not be the pros who should ultimately decide about their own living?  If people want to argue against new equipment based on added costs to the consumer, you have my attention.

Pat, I agree with the others about your questions and comment, very left field.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

TEPaul

Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2005, 07:19:59 AM »
Pat:

One way the USGA funded a lot of things they've been doing in recent years is to get a guy like former board member Eric Gleacher, a Wall Street whiz, to handle their investments with which the USGA made quite a number of millions. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) they did not renominate Eric Glaeacher perhaps because of the perception of a foul-up over the Russian Tea Room move to NYC with their museum.

But the US Open is definitely the jewel in their crown. If all else failed with what the USGA does they could always shrink back to just the US Open. And it sure is a cash cow---they know that as well as anyone.

With the Open at Bethpage that took in around $40 million. Do they need to look to do that at every US Open? That's the question, and that does have a lot to do with their considerations of going back to some of the old line Open sites like Merion.

But, hell, if it's just funding they think about maybe they should just register as a corporation, pay taxes and float a stock issue! Then they could sell the administration of the game for whatever they could get.  ;)

Gary_Nelson

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2005, 12:08:29 PM »
I agree with DLIII's analogy of Jeff Gordon's race car.  DLIII can't make it go as fast as Jeff.  Same is true for golf equipment.

Folks, we're arguing about how to accomodate the elite 0.1% of the golfers in the world.

I have yet to see real data that tells me the remaining 99.9% of golfers out there are hitting the ball "too far".  People with 90mph swing speeds, X-stiff shafts and ProV1 balls are probably losing distance off the tee.  Maybe they love the delusion.

BTW... USGA funding should be in another thread.

Bruce Katona

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2005, 12:32:46 PM »
The only Pro V1's I have in my bag are the ones I have found in places where $45/ dozen golf balls never should be... so far out of play they can't be found. If you are hitting the ball into those places, on a consistannt basis, you should be playing "experienced" golf balls you pay $1 for 2.

TEPaul

Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2005, 01:17:09 PM »
I'm afraid DLIII is right that this distance thing is basically only for those golfers who can swing the club at a certain MPH swing speed. It appears these manufacturers have basically created a technologic situation with particularly the golf ball but also impliments that are basically for that high swing speed crowd. In the process it certainly seems they faked out the USGA's tech center in the last 10-12 years too.

He's probably very right that for most of the rest of us it really makes no difference in distance or anything else. I know it hasn't for me and that's probably for the very reason he gives---eg I don't have a swing speed high enough to take advantage of the benefits of this new technology. Matter of fact it seems to me in retrospect that only those who do have a highish swing speed can take advantage of it. For the rest of us it doesn't matter.

I guess anyone on here can take Davis Love to task for admitting that even if it's probably true.

Rick Shefchik

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2005, 01:47:03 PM »
Tom - Of course it's true. I don't see where anyone on this thread is taking Love to task for saying the pros get more out of the new equipment than the rest of us. I've stated on several other threads that my home course and all the other courses I play are plenty long, despite the Big Bertha II and ProV1s in my bag.

I took Love to task for ignoring the impact the equipment has on the way the pro game is now played, and the way it is affecting the courses they (and, 51 weeks of the years, we) play on.

Someone suggested I should stop watching pro golf if I find its current style boring. To a great extent, I have, and the network numbers suggest I'm not alone. Particpation rates have fallen, and that, too, can be at least partially attributed to pro golf's declining popularity. It's obviously not in a free fall, and I'd hope it never gets to that, but the tennis honchos didn't think they were in trouble at first, either.

I took Love to task for blithely suggesting that we just keep lengthening courses to keep up with the technology (technology that you and I agree does most of us little good to begin with). I can't for the life of me figure out why that approach would appeal to anyone except a millionaire golf course designer.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 01:47:25 PM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Gary_Nelson

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2005, 01:58:49 PM »
Why do you take DLIII to task for lengthening tournament courses?  The PGA Tour only has 50 events a year (or less).  Lenthen those courses to 9000 yards if necessary.  There should be no reason to lengthen the rest of the courses because non-PGA Tour players don't need it.  

Is it fair to say that 6,500 yards is PLENTY of golf for most players?  I think so.

Rick Shefchik

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2005, 02:05:48 PM »
Gary -- I'd agree with you if we were only talking about 50 PGA Tour courses (which, of course, are only played one week per year by the pros, and 51 weeks by members and the public), but there's a ripple affect that occurs, resulting in almost every new course being built at over 7,000 yards, and the perpetual lengthening of many courses that hope to one day host a PGA Tour event, or a Champions or LPGA or Nationwide or Hooters event, or a USGA event, or a USGA qualifier or a statewide amateur event.

As George Pazin said in his excellent post on the SI Roundtable, the barriers to the growth of golf are time and money. The equipment arms race inevitably leads to the game taking up more of both.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Gary_Nelson

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Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2005, 02:14:36 PM »
I don't buy the time and money argument as a limiting factor in golf.  

Time:  There is negligible different when you add another 30 minutes to a 6 hour round.  Those making a time commitment to play golf have already blocked out an entire afternoon.

Money:  Sure you can buy the $500 driver.  But you can also buy last year's model for $199.

I think the barrier to entry is more about desire with respect to leisure time alternatives (ie. Nintendo).

As for land usage, I would suggest that the legal system has increased the required acreage more so than course length.  Wider gaps between fairway centerlines and more buffer to adjacent homes.

TEPaul

Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2005, 02:43:06 PM »
Rick:

I'm not sure I can see where Love blithely suggests we just keep lengthening golf courses. If someone from a golf club that doesn't hold tour events read what Love did say why can't he see that Love is saying this is primarily professionals like him who get this benefit, not really the rest of us;

"The game hasn't gotten any easier for the average guy," Love said. I've said this all along..."

If a reasonable club member read that why would he assume he needs to lengthen his course for the tour pro when they'll likely never play the course? It seems like Love is making that point.

Alfie

Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2005, 02:48:17 PM »
Gary Nelson asks ;
Is it fair to say that 6,500 yards is PLENTY of golf for most players?  I think so.

I agree totally. So why not try stabilising the sport by restricting the distance farce and thereby give the thousands of courses worldwide a glimmer hope of becoming a 6500 yard challenge for their members and visitors..... AND pro's ?

No ! Let's all keep the distance war progressing the same old way - as it has since the gutta outphased the feather ball. And the lessons from this strategy ? Natural wasteage of courses falling by the wayside because their appeal to modern golfers of each era has declined "mostly" due to those courses being deemed too short and lacking challenge ! Deemed so, not by the godly professionals, viz ; dipsticks in the self interested ways of Love and co. But by the 99.9% of ordinary Joe Blogg dipstick golfers.

Stabilise the game through the ball ; let average courses invest their course budgets so that they can play catchup with the best ; and allow the ordinary golfer the continuing "advantage" of using forgiving equipment in order to strike a ball that just doesn't go so far !

The distance issue has EVERYTHING to do with ANYONE involved with golf. Golf is gradually becoming more elitist (once again) and that can't be good for sport, the golfers, and the people who tell porkies to the gullible masses by daft Irishmen and his paymasters ????

Alfie

Alfie

Re:DL III on golf
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2005, 03:05:09 PM »
"The game hasn't gotten any easier for the average guy," Love said. I've said this all along..."

Does anyone really believe this statement ? Of course it's gotten easier ! And to some degree that's been good for golf.

Take the equipment back 30 years and modern day "quitters" will quit the sport.

Take (only) the ball back 30 years....and they'll keep on turning up to try again ! But on their brand new layout offering new and different challenges !

Alfie

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