Grove Park Inn

[Brad Klein]

Wayne, I think this is somewhat overstated what you conclude:

"I visited the Tufts Archives earlier this year with Lloyd Cole and Craig Disher.  I was trying to get information on the seven Ross courses that Flynn redesigned and they didn't have drawings or information on any of them.  Although it is a terrific place with loads of great archival materials, it just isn't comprehensived in any sense, especially given the high output by Ross and company . . . "

In fact, given the high output by Ross and company, the fact that they have so much is amazing. What do you want or expect, hole by hole plans for all 410 Ross courses, including every contract and telegram? This is far and away the most extensive collection in terms of both volume and percentage of work of any designer's career. Ross himself had his secretary burn his many of his papers upon his death in April 1948, and this is what has been culled from Pinehurst, individual clubs, Ross and his associates, all thanks to the efforts of Khris Januzik, the late W. Pete Jones, and now Audrey Moriarty. I had to do some of my own hunting and gathering, and the record will never be complete. But to have this much is still amazing and unsurpassed. History isn't served up on a silver tray; it has to be dug out of the ground.

[T_MacWood]

Michael
I spoke to the Tufts on Wenseday and they don't have any historical documentation on Ross and Asheville CC. Did Ross design or redesign Asheville?

What major design or redesign is not on the card?

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I have seen the bunker drawing...it is very interesting.

[wsmorrison]

Brad,

I did not mean to overstate.  It seems I did.  The collection is very impressive and the staff more than helpful.  I meant to convey that if someone goes there to look for specific information there is a good chance there won't be any.  While they have about half the courses covered, that leaves a lot missing.  It is a great and wonderful collection, I am sorry if it seemed like I disparraged their efforts.

As to the highest percentage of a pre WWII architect's work, the most comprehensive by far is the Flynn collection. The Ross collection is not surpassed in size but it most certainly is in terms of percent.  Much of ithe architectural drawings was found in David Gordon's barn and Tom and I have tracked down about 30% more.  All together there are about 107 sets of drawings.  Nothing comes close.  

I know this stuff isn't found on a silver platter.  I've spent more than six years researching Flynn and searching for materials.  It is found in cabinets behind boilers, in attics, basements, car garages on Long Island and elsewhere.  In our case much was found in a barn.  It takes dedicated work such as you and others are willing to do.  Thank you, but I am well aware.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

I'm still not clear what you may be implying here. Is it that the course that Michael Fay mentioned in the article he wrote a few years ago that's hyperlinked into the first or second post of this thred and that Kris Spence restored in the last few years may not have ever been a Donald Ross golf course?

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

That's true that what you have of Flynn's architectural drawings as a percentage of what he did in his career far exceeds that of Donald Ross---not in total amount perhaps as Flynn only did something just over 50 golf courses but certainly as a percentage of a career compared to Ross. I believe Rand Jerris of the USGA mentioned he felt it was the single most complete collection of architectural drawings of any pre-WW2 architect.

[T_MacWood]

TE
I'm trying to determine if Grove Park Inn is in fact a Ross course (design or redesign)...if it is, what exactly did he do and when?  

If Ross wasn't involved...who was?

[TEPaul]

"TE
I'm trying to determine if Grove Park Inn is in fact a Ross course (design or redesign)...if it is, what exactly did he do and when?"

Tom MacWood:

Why don't you simply save yourself some time and effort and call up restoration architect Kris Spence and ask him to tell you or show you what he used for documentation on this course to restore this golf course if he and others think it was Ross? If that doesn't satisfy you then perhaps you can at that point launch into this implication that if you haven't yet found the doumentation on your own it may not be a Ross course?

Clubs are mistaken not infrequently about who the architect of their course was. I think some of these "experts" on some of these old architects are sometimes mistaken too in what they attribute to various architects, particularly their favorite architect.

There's one thing I sure do know by now, and that is I would not trust ANYONE to categorically establish that simply because they think something "looks" like an architect it has to be his. I've seen even the best at all this make that mistake occasionally.

[Brad Klein]

Tom, you're making this way too complicated and asking the wrong questions, then looking for the wrong answers. Why assume Ross as all or nothing?

Willie Park Jr. original nine at GPI in 1909. 9 holes added by Herbert Barker in 1911, then the hotel was added 1912-13 and Ross did a renovation of the existing 18 in 1926.

[TEPaul]

Tom:

Have you ever been to this golf course in North Carolina? If not would you be willing to take the word of a few others that the course as redone by Spence (no matter who the original architect was) is better than it was before he did the project and perhaps better than it ever was? Or are you trying to determine if perhaps Spence and the club made a mistake in not restoring 2-3 bunkers where there now is only a single and perhaps for not flashing the sand up quite far enough?

Or would you even ask why in the world I'd even think to ask you a question like that?  

Brad Klein said:

"Tom, you're making this way too complicated and asking the wrong questions, then looking for the wrong answers."

Brad:

That's his modus operandi on here---welcome to the frustration trying to discuss things like this with him. But soldier on with the discussion on GPI and Ross my good man, better you than me!  

But take care because if he proves that this golf course (GPI) never had anything to do with Donald Ross he's going to prove you, Michael j. Fay, Kris Spence and GPI very wrong in all your combined research. And at that point I'm gonna ask, so what? Is the golf course better today than it used to be or was in the teens or the mid-1920s no matter who the architect was?  What'll he say to that?

[T_MacWood]

Brad
Willie Park II was not in the US in 1909. He claimed to have been in Asheville in 1916-1917. I'm not sure if he redesigned Barker's 18 or proposed a second 18 that was never built. I suspect the latter.

Do you know what Ross did in 1926?

[Brad Klein]

Tom, some folks at GPI claim that Park did the original nine back in the mid-1890s. Maybe that's when he did it and the date is thus earlier than 1909. In any case, Ross renovated an existing 18-hole course around 1926, as best as I can tell. Please don't complicate things and conjure up ghosts.

[TEPaul]

Brad:

Watch yourself pal, you may be approaching some serious timeline potholes with Park Jr. It seems the man was on the other side of the Atlantic back then and not to reappear on our shores for anther 5-6 years. I guess it's possible the course that is now GPI faxed or emailed a topo over to Willie and he faxed or emailed a design plan back but I wouldn't want you to stake your life on that.

Tom MacWood:

This is a little OT and sidebar but I'd really like to know anyway.

Would you personally say, if this golf course was any good in 1899, 1909, the teens or 1926 (in your opinion, of course) that the primary influence for it's architecture should go to Horace Hutchinson (The "Father" of golf architecture, unfortunately later somewhat demoted by you to the "Guide" of Golden Age Architecture), Country Life Magazine and perhaps even be labeled "arts and crafts" architecture?  

I mean, you know, we're talking North Carolina here, a virtual hotbed of furniture making, so JUST MAYBE many of its "regional" instincts were fostered back then by the influence of William Morris, HH. CL Mag and the Arts and Crafts Movement, even if noone actually put a real label on it until maybe around 2003!

Try not to freak out over these questions. I'm just trying to determine if William Morris was on the right track or not by claiming that all art forms should be combined somehow as you claimed his vision was to do!

[T_MacWood]

"Tom, some folks at GPI claim that Park did the original nine back in the mid-1890s. Maybe that's when he did it"

Brad
That was a theory Pete Jones had, but it doesn't appear Park visited the mid-South in 1895 or 1896. Park did acknowledge he was there in 1916-17.

I have a plan that appears to be circa 1913-1919, the basic routing matches the routing today with a few exceptions. One being the clubhouse being in a new location, which required the alteration of a hole (the 3rd hole on the map, which I believe was the 12th in 1926). The new clubhouse was built in 1926.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Just something the rabbit and I wanted to add:

  If one uses Google maps to bring up an aerial of the Asheville area, perhaps to better follow some of the proceedings, there are some errors in labelling golf courses.  

If one wants to look at an aerial of the Asheville area, as rabbit and I did earlier, here are a few things:

1.  Grove Park Inn is mistakenly labeled CC of Asheville on Google Maps.  The large buildings to the NE of the course are the hotel buildings.  The golf course is immediately adjacent.  This is roughly in the center of the aerial.  

2.  CC of Asheville is labeled Buncombe Cty Municipal GC, and is located naer the top of the photo.  It has the strange routing-

3.  Biltmore Forest is south in the picture, and is not visible due to the photos.  

4.  Buncombe Municipal is SE of the other two courses, in the vicinity of US 70,74, and Interstate 240.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I've been following this thread from the side and am greatly intrigued by all. But I am especially intrigued by your reamrk to Brad KLein where you said, "I have a plan that appears to be circa 1913-1919, the basic routing matches the routing today with a few exceptions."

What names are on this plan? Who drew it? Can you scan and put it on the site for others to see? This might help others in the researches that they are doing and even generate some new discussion.

[T_MacWood]

There is no name on the plan. It is a basic stick routing which was part of advertisement for the Great Southern RR.

http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/asheville/asheville.html

This appears to be from 1913-14...this course is most likely the unheralded Herbert Barker's.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood said;

“There is no name on the plan. It is a basic stick routing which was part of advertisement for the Great Southern RR.

Tom MacW:

Do you think it matters if that stick routing that appears on the hyperlink was done by the architect(s)who designed and built that course or if that stick routing was done by some artist who may’ve done an advertisement for the course or the railroad after the course was built? I think you should seriously consider this from Brad Klein, for the time being;

"Tom, you're making this way too complicated and asking the wrong questions, then looking for the wrong answers. Why assume Ross as all or nothing?"

What’s wrong with taking my advice with getting in touch with Kris Spence and asking him what research documentation he worked with on his recent so-called restoration project of this golf course?

[TEPaul]

"This appears to be from 1913-14...this course is most likely the unheralded Herbert Barker's."

Yeah, so what? What if Ross put a total redesign on that golf course (routing) in the mid-1920s? Then what, in your opinion? Would the course (and what Spence recently restored) be something of a Barker, a Ross, or a Barker Ross or Ross Barker?  

[john_stiles]

I understand that there is or may be some documentation (correspondence/photo) re: Ross in GPI archives.

However, a phone call to GPI probably will not suffice as I understand that most of the material regarding  'golf ' is a stepchild and almost just tossed in the corner.


Tom MacWood,

I just spoke with Kris Spence. His opinion is that Ross was there & worked on the course.  He related that all the golf 'stuff' is relegated to a corner of the GPI archives.  Kris indicated that he did not find any Ross drawings and worked mostly from the old course photographs.  Kris also spoke with the older members as part of his research. This doesn't help you much, other than there may be material (correspondence/photos) in the GPI archives per Kris and Kris thinks that Ross did work at GPI.

[Greg Holland]

For what's worth, The Architects of Golf list Asheville CC (fka Beaver Lake GC) as a Ross course from 1928.  

It also lists the "Grove Park Inn CC" as:

Willie Park, Jr  (9 in 1909)
(R.9, A.9) Herbert Barker (1911)
(R) Donald Ross (1924)
(R) Russell Breeden

As has been noted, Kris Spence restored it more recently.

[TEPaul]

If Ross had little to nothing to do with this course it sure wouldn't be the first or last course to say or think they were a Ross and weren't.

Consider C&W as a source, for instance. They did so much in collecting information on courses and architects all over the world if it wasn't readily apparent who the architect of some course was what were they going to do other than ask the club what they thought?

But the thought of a Ross restoration that's been broadly praised by a number of Ross "experts" on a course that Ross had little or nothing to do with? That might be a pretty novel one, that's for sure.

In that case I guess I'd have to ask Tom MacWood if he thinks the club made some mistakes in the Spence restoration anyway?  (the way he does about Aronimink)

[michael j fay]

Tom McWood:

Donald Ross lived in North Carolina for 48 years, he was probably the most traveled of Architects and was plugged into everything golf through his contacts and those of the Tuft's Family. Do you think that Mr. Ross might have objected had the GPI advertised a Ross course? I think he might have.

Everything I have read in the files in Pinehurst (which is not nearly as comprehensive as yourself) makes me believe it was built at some time (1924/6)by Donald Ross. He may well have used some of the routing of Mr. Barker, but that was not really his style. When he redesigned, very little of the original author was left.

[TEPaul]

Michael J:

This is interesting stuff. I love to see two good researching minds going at it and trying to deduce things even if they're attempting to draw different conclusions. Belay that--particularly if they're trying to draw different conclusions! Can you prove that GPI advertized the course in question here as Ross while Ross was still alive? If so it sure would seem the point you made in the post above is an excellent one to consider.

[T_MacWood]

“Do you think that Mr. Ross might have objected had the GPI advertised a Ross course? I think he might have.”

Interesting theory. The only problem, this course was not the Grove Park Inn, but the Asheville CC.

You are right though, Ross didn’t design a lot of resort courses: The Broadmoor, Bellaire Biltmore, French Lick, Balsams, The Sagamore, Havana Biltmore and maybe a few more, but they are all pretty far from Pinehurst.

Back to Asheville CC, I did some digging and found why I believe Ross did not list this golf course.

In the American Golfer March 7, 1925 titled ‘The Winter Season in Asheville’: it is announced a contract has been signed to have Ross design a new municipal course in Asheville. “Ross laid out the Biltmore Forest Course and that at Beaver Lake, two suburban courses of this city, and is confident that this, his third venture among Asheville hills, will prove his best.”

American Golfer May 2, 1925 titled ‘Divots from Asheville’ : it is announced a new clubhouse for Asheville CC will be built at a price tag of $250,000.

American Golfer May 30, 1925 titled ‘Divots from Asheville’: Because the new clubhouse will be on the north edge of the property, the holes must be rearranged.  In response Donald Ross will build one new hole, in addition he will remodel three greens. He evidently was planning to move some tees because the course will be 200 yards longer. It will be ready January 1.

American Golfer June 1926 titled ‘Asheville Activities’: May 18 the new clubhouse officially opened. However according to article the course only has an additional 30 yards. It then goes on to list the renumbering of the holes: #15 is now #1, #16 is now #2, and so on. No mention of the new hole.

Ross was a man of integrity; he never took credit for designs in which he only made minor changes….I don’t think one hole and possibly three greens would warrant attribution. Herbert Barker is not chop liver, the Grove Park Inn should still be proud, plus the jury is still out on what Willie Park Jr. may have done.