[T_MacWood]

I've read some very positive comments about this restoration. What is a little confusing to me...what exactly was restored? Is this a Ross course?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Yes, it's a Ross.

Maybe this will help with what was restored if Kris Spence or Walker Taylor or a few others who know more don't see this thread.

http://www.donaldrosssociety.org/MEMBERS/GrovePark.htm

[T_MacWood]

Scott
The article says Ross designed the course circa 1924. I've never been able to find any connection between the Grove Park Inn (Asheville CC) and Ross. Are you sure it is a Ross course, if i'm not mistaken the course dates back to at least 1911?

[Brad Klein]

It was Ross's work, all of it crammed onto about 85 acres, and on the grounds of the glorious old GPI. Kris Spence did a very fine restoration job that markedly improved sight lines, bunker visibility, and widened playing corridors. Putting surfaces were reclaimed and lots of trees were cut back and the whole golf course was regrassed. It reopened in late 2003, as I recall.

Country Club of Asheville in town is a very mediocre, much hacked up Ross layout.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott
The article says Ross designed the course circa 1924. I've never been able to find any connection between the Grove Park Inn (Asheville CC) and Ross. Are you sure it is a Ross course, if i'm not mistaken the course dates back to at least 1911?

Asheville CC (actually CC of Asheville) and GPI are two different entities (and two different courses).  CCA is listed as a Ross on golfcourse.com, but they've been wrong before.  Biltmore Forest CC in Asheville is also a Ross and hosted the 1999 U.S. Women's Amateur.

[T_MacWood]

Scott
Asheville CC and the Grove Park Inn are the same golf course. The club sold the course to the Inn in 1976.

[T_MacWood]

Brad
As far as I've been able to gather the only courses Ross designed in Asheville are Biltmore Forest, Beaver Lake (today CC of Asheville) and Asheville Municipal (today Buncombe CC).

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott
Asheville CC and the Grove Park Inn are the same golf course. The club sold the course to the Inn in 1976.

Sorry, I thought you were misnaming the CC of Asheville, a real and separate course today, also apparently a Ross design.  I should know better, considering the level of research you do.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Scott
Asheville CC and the Grove Park Inn are the same golf course. The club sold the course to the Inn in 1976.

Sorry, I thought you were misnaming the CC of Asheville, a real and separate course today, also apparently a Ross design.  I should know better, considering the level of research you do.

I thought the same Scott, as today many people mistakenly call CC of Asheville by the name Asheville CC.  

I have played Buncome CC (which is public) years ago and seen Biltmore Forest (but have not played yet).  Which are both Ross.  However I was pretty sure that I heard that GPI course was originally Ross as well.

[T_MacWood]

The Tufts Archives doesn't have any original Ross drawing or plans of Asheville CC, nor do they have any historic information linking Ross to the course. And Ross never listed Asheville within his fairly comprehensive booklet of designs and redesigns--but ironically Willie Park II listed it in his booklet.

Did Chris Spence or anyone at the Ross Society uncover a Ross connection prior to restoring the course?

[Phil_the_Author]

From the Grove Park Inn web-site:

"The Golf Course first opened for play in 1899 and was redesigned in 1924 by Ross. The 6,720-yard, par 70 layout is a shot maker's challenge with emphasis on accuracy rather than power."

Maybe someone from the Ross society might want to give them a call and see if they have any of the documentation and/or drawings from this?

[TEPaul]

"The Tufts Archives doesn't have any original Ross drawing or plans of Asheville CC, nor do they have any historic information linking Ross to the course."

Is that unusual?

Probably around 1997 or 1998 I called Chris Januzek in Pinehurst and asked if they had anything on my course and she looked and said they didn't. I believe I also remember her saying when Ross died a lot of his papers were just dumped in a barrel and burned. If that's true I guess it's proabable that Ross may've worked on some courses where no record now exists.

[T_MacWood]

I wouldn't expect the GPI to be a good source of information on the history of ACC since they didn't take over the course until the last 1970's. I've spoken to the Inn, they don't have any plans and their understanding of who did what is a little sketchy, not well documented.

If Ross was ever there, my guess would be around 1926 when a new clubhouse was built. However the fact that he does not list the course, makes me even wonder about that as well.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I visited the Tufts Archives earlier this year with Lloyd Cole and Craig Disher.  I was trying to get information on the seven Ross courses that Flynn redesigned and they didn't have drawings or information on any of them.  Although it is a terrific place with loads of great archival materials, it just isn't comprehensived in any sense, especially given the high output by Ross and company.

Did anyone there see the original framed drawing of Ross's bunker styles?  I think there are 6 with various slopes, edges and faces.  Pretty interesting stuff.  I know they make facsimile reproductions.   Its a nice looking drawing.  If you want to order one, they'd be happy to have one made for you.

[T_MacWood]

"Is that unusual?"

Its not unusual that they wouldn't have the plans, although they have the plans for many of his courses. It would be unusual that they wouldn't have any historic documentation in a file on ACC (or Gulph Mills for that matter). There is plenty of histotical information connecting GM to Ross, including its listing in his booklet of projects (put out around 1930-31).

When researching within the Tufts, there are two major areas to search. The first place would be where they catalog his plans/drawings. The other area is the individual files on each Ross course, that contains old magazine and newspaper clippings, letters, old photos etc.

I would disagree with Wayne, the information is fairly comprehensive, especially if you are only trying to confirm Ross was involved in a particular project....which is the case here.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
What seven Ross courses were you searching for?

[TEPaul]

Let me see if I understand this thread correctly. Is Tom MacWood saying that it's possible that Michael J. Fay and Kris Spence (and perhaps Brad Klein) think a Ross golf course was restored to Ross that never was a Ross golf course in the first place?

Or is this some misunderstanding over the name of a course?

[TEPaul]

" It would be unusual that they wouldn't have any historic documentation in a file on ACC (or Gulph Mills for that matter)."

Tom MacWood:

Well, then the fact that they had nothing down there on GMGC should be considered unusual then---even if Chris Januzek didn't seem to think it was unusual. I remember that conversation with her well. She said even if they had nothing on some course down there that may've had something to do with Ross her suggestion was to scower the local area for some evidence that a course may've had something to do with Ross. The best example of that is Jeffersonville. Pinehurst and Tufts had nothing on it apparently but the supervisor of the township that owned it did scower the local area and found some pay receipts in the attic of some little old lady's house in the area---an example of the unusual documentation discovery.

I'm not saying that Chris Januzek was implying that GMGC was not a Ross course even if they had nothing down there she could find on it. Obviously it's a Ross course because we have plenty in our club from the beginning proving it is for a whole variety of reasons and obviously Pinehurst and Tufts was aware of that (I should probably copy all I have on GMGC from Ross and send it to Tufts). I called Januzek only to see if they had something down there in Pinehurst that we didn't have at GMGC.

As for some other courses that may think they are Ross but may never have been I'd offer the example of Concord G.C. (originally Brinton Lakes and later Concordville G.C.) I don't know why the club thought for so long they were a Ross course but I don't believe there was anything about the course that ever was. It was originally a William Flynn course and we have the drawings that proved it to them.

[wsmorrison]

Tom MacWood,

I am not saying the information they have is not comprehensive, I am saying there are large gaps in the courses they have information on.  For instance the Old Course at the  Homestead.  They have a modern scorecard and that is all.  I was hoping they had an old scorecard or information about Ross's version of the course.  I think I have it figured out but I sure would have liked confirmation.

The seven courses I was trying to research are:

Old Course at Homestead:  Ross 1918  Flynn 1925
Prince George's (Beaver Dam):  Ross 1921  Flynn 1927
Indian Spring:  Ross 1922  Flynn 1944
McCall Field:  Ross 1919  Flynn 1923
Pocono Manor:  Ross 1919  Flynn 1920
Sunnybrook:  Ross 1921  Flynn 1928
Washington GCC:  Ross 1915  Flynn 1919

The Tufts has no information on any of these courses.

Then there's the lone Flynn that Ross made changes to.  He proposed some significant changes although only small ones were made (one green moved, one tee extended and one green expanded).  That would be Huntingdon Valley:  Flynn 1927  Ross 1946

We made copies of the HVCC materials for the Tufts.  They did supply us with copies of Ross's plans for CC York which were helpful in our comparison/contrast with Flynn's plans submitted at the same time.

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul,

Another example of a mis-attribution is Norfolk CC, now Sewell's Point.  They think of themselves as a Donald Ross course, his picture hangs in the clubhouse and his name is on the scorecards.  Well from the Kennedy collection of scorecards at the USGA we found that the club had at least 2 courses at one time.  One may have been by Ross, the other is certainly Flynn.  The course they have today is the Flynn course and we proved that to them as well.  I don't think they've changed the attribution; maybe after the book comes out  

[michael j fay]

It was built by Ross as the Ashville Country Club in 1924.
There are numerous histories of the Inn and the golf course at the Tufts Archives that attest to the fact.

It was mangled numerous times by additions to the hotel (which took away parts of the golf course for tennis courts and parking lots). By the time I saw it, it was unrecognizable.
Unrecognizable as a golf course as well as a Ross course.

The restoration was done from some early aerials and completed by Kris Spence in 2002. His work was particularily good considering the extent of the damage done to the course.

It is not unusual that the Tufts Archives does not have the drawings. It is all together too frequent an occurence. It seems that after the death of Ross, Eric Nelson started to burn numerous sets of drawings until he was stopped by Lillian Pippitt (Ross's daughter). What remains of the originals are at the Tufts Archives or in the hands of his heirs and not open to public perusal. As for Ross's business card, I have a copy and the card does not list anywhere near the number of courses he designed. I have often found this puzzling but the card would have been burdensome had he listed all of the courses he designed prior to 1930 (well over 300).

At the time of my first visit to the Tufts Archives, there were only about 80 sets of plans on file. These have been augmented by the collection of data from some 100 clubs over the past fifteen years.

As for original Ross in Ashville the best bet is the Buncombe County Municipal Course which is virtually the same as its opening day with two major exceptions. The nines were reversed and the tenth tee was moved to accomodate a maintenence building. Of course, BCMC suffers from the normal neglect, overtreeing and other time-borne maladies that most munis display.

The Ross Society stands by the designation of the Grove Park Inn, but is always open to new information.

[T_MacWood]

TE
They have a file on GM..which includes among other things, an old article from the NY Times mentioning Ross's involvement...not to mention his original booklet in which he lists GM as his design.

Wayne
The courses that are NLE are the ones where the info is more scarce. Are you sure Ross designed (or redesigned) all those courses? Doesn't the old Homestead course go back before 1918?

[TEPaul]

"When researching within the Tufts, there are two major areas to search. The first place would be where they catalog his plans/drawings. The other area is the individual files on each Ross course, that contains old magazine and newspaper clippings, letters, old photos etc."

Tom:

In a general sense while researching some old course I'd stick with original plans from the architect or some evidence of original documentation from the original architect. At that point I'd try to compare using aerials, photos or whatnot of what actually got built. I would not rely as much on magazine articles and newspaper clippings because in some cases those sources may tend to perpetuate old rumors that never were true in the first place.

How many times over the decades has a Concord G.C. told some writer that they are a Ross course and he reported that? It happens more than we'd like to think and it was never true. But if you can find original documentation from an architect and get lucky enough to compare that to what got built then you know that historic accuracy increases.

[TEPaul]

"TE
They have a file on GM..which includes among other things, an old article from the NY Times mentioning Ross's involvement...not to mention his original booklet in which he lists GM as his design."

Tom MacWood:

I realize that. As I said to you before I was looking for something from Pinehurst, Tufts and Chris Januzek that we didn't already have at GMGC or were not aware of from Ross. They had nothing we didn't have or were aware of, and Chris Januzek told me so.

[wsmorrison]

Michael,

That's great that the Tufts is accumulating the architectural records from the individual Ross clubs.  I'm sure you and your society was instrumental in that effort.  Good show!

Tom MacWood,

The original Homestead course does predate Ross's coming to America.  He did a complete revision of the existing course in 1913-1918.  The original 6 holes were built in 1892.  The current first tee is supposedly the oldest in America.

We are pretty certain Ross did the original design work or significant work on the courses I listed.  We don't have original drawings by Ross but we do have club minutes and other archival materials that indicate his presence at all of them.  Aren't they on Brad's list?  I thought so.  I didn't see the Ross list at Tufts.  Is it printed anywhere?

Have you seen the drawing of Ross bunker styles?  It is very interesting.

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