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Mike_Sweeney

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2005, 08:34:59 PM »
The largest detriment to American golf IS the golf CART...get off your backsides and walk the course...why the hell do you need a caddie or a cart for that matter?

Brian,

Last Saturday I teed off at Yale at 4:10PM walking and finished around 7:15PM. It was reunion weekend at Yale and I heard that it was a slow day for most of the weekend. There was a large contingent from the Class of 1955 for their 50th anniversary back at Yale (average age 72), and while I did not see them, I would assume that they probably took a cart at Yale as it is a hilly course and it has been unseasonanly hot and humid here the last week or so.

Now Yale had caddies and deeper bunkers in the old days. I would assume that many in the Class of 1955 do not play regular golf, but rather simply played because they got to see and talk for 4-5 hours with some of their old buddies. Should we now ban the Class of 1955 because they do not walk?

My point is that while I love many things about this website, the myopic view on certain topics is silly. Rees Jones has designed some wonderful courses, I like playing while carrying my own bag, taking caddies at special places and taking a cart with my business partner when we can actually talk. I play Bethpage Black for $39 and Pebble Beach for whatever silly price I paid.

By the way, I have found this to be an inspiring thread including all your comments and I have finally gotten around to writing the check to The Burke Fund (http://www.burkefund.org) which is Rhode Island's caddy fund. I will mail it tomorrow as my summer caddying at Newport CC was a great time in my life.  :)

PS. David Fay has ruined Bethpage Black as I used to get on pre-restoration with maybe a 30 minute wait!  ;)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 09:15:50 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2005, 09:13:22 PM »
Mike, you'd rather have a beat up, moribund Black Course to play than a refreshed, fixed up one? And for that you blame David Fay? I'd add one of those winky heads for you, but I don't know how to.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 09:17:47 PM by Brad Klein »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2005, 09:15:30 PM »
Mike, you'd rather have a beat up, moribund Black Course to play than a refreshed, fixed up one? And for that you blame David Fay? Please.

Sorry, I forgot my standard Winky Guy! He has been added.  :D
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 09:16:13 PM by Mike Sweeney »

TEPaul

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2005, 09:43:06 PM »
"How many are you talking about...one hundred..two..."

Brian:

I believe Chicago's regional golf association is a very big one, maybe a couple hundred golf clubs or more.  With a Caddie Scholarship program the size of the Evans I'm sure the Chicago Golf Association has always encouraged its member clubs to have caddie programs at their courses (GAP always has). With a couple of hundred member clubs we're probably talking a bit more than one or two hundred caddies unless each of the clubs just uses a single caddie for their entire membership.  ;)

Furthermore, I'm glad you all over there are the way you are with your golf, your clubs, whatever. We over here do things differently, pretty much always have. I wouldn't want to change that and Americanize how Europeans treat their golf and the way they go about playing it. I wouldn't want Americans to "Europeanize" their golf and the way they go about it over here, either. The national cultures within golf have always had an interesting variety and that's the way it should stay, in my opinion. It probably makes the game richer for all in the end. Call it the "Big World" theory if you like. I do! This notion from anyone anywhere that "everyone should do it our way or my way" is not good, in my opinion.  ;)

Unless of course we're talking about a unified handicapping system world-wide. I'd go for that.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 09:45:48 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2005, 09:49:08 PM »
"Just get rid of the bloody carts...simple"

OK. Tomorrow, even if many to most American clubs don't want to get rid of their carts I'll just mandate a ban on all golf carts in America and if it's that simple the entire problem should be solved by Saturday morning!



T_MacWood

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2005, 09:52:29 PM »
"...the myopic view on certain topics is silly. Rees Jones has designed some wonderful courses..."

You're really digging deep to try to make a point...by the way I agree the elderly and the weak should be permitted to use carts.
 :)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 06:19:46 AM by Tom MacWood »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2005, 11:39:54 PM »
If you want to "grow the game" by getting more kids involved, do two things:
1. make golf cheaper; don't urge kids to get a job!
2. make it clear to members of clubs that kids WILL be on the course during the afternoons and summer mornings, that they will be playing less well and possibly somewhat more slowly, and that their presence on the course is part of the club's total program.  My experience has been that people love to talk about junior golf, but go absolutely nuts when there are actually kids on "their" golf course!


Why the heck should you make excuses for the kids if they are playing slowly?  If you let them get away with it when they are young, they will grow up to be slow players for life!  Let the kids play, tell them they will be expected to keep up or skip holes as required.  But only if that's enforced for the adults too.  Nothing would piss off and disillusion a 13 year old about golf faster than getting hassled by the rangers for a 1/2 hole gap, then getting stuck behind a foursome of middle aged beer bellies playing a five hour round who get only a friendly wave from the ranger as he toodles on by.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2005, 11:57:51 PM »
I know I am an idealist but-

There should be no Junior golf, no Senior golf, no Members golf, no League golf, no Ladies golf, or any special expectation given thereto.  There should be only GOLF.

GOLF - a game whose participants respect others who play it and the course on which they enjoy it.  With that should come a solemn obligation to:
   play at pace or allow others to play through.
   repair and maintain the course by:
                                        fixing ball marks correctly
                                        raking traps
                                        replacing / filling divots – on par three tees too!
                                        using carts and trolleys responsibly
    wear attire appropriate to the occasion and setting.

What human being, worth his / her salt, doesn’t want to be a part of something greater than them selves?  Golf can be that medium.

Who doesn’t want to go to a place where they know they will be respected, regardless of stage or station in life, to enjoy the company of like minded, respectful folks with a common interest?  Golf can be that medium.

Who doesn’t want their children to develop in this environment, where an individual must always take responsibility for his / her actions by playing the next shot from wherever they hit it in the only game where it is honorable and expected to call a penalty on oneself?  Golf can be that medium.

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2005, 12:16:26 AM »
If you want to "grow the game" by getting more kids involved, do two things:
1. make golf cheaper; don't urge kids to get a job!
2. make it clear to members of clubs that kids WILL be on the course during the afternoons and summer mornings, that they will be playing less well and possibly somewhat more slowly, and that their presence on the course is part of the club's total program.  My experience has been that people love to talk about junior golf, but go absolutely nuts when there are actually kids on "their" golf course!


Why the heck should you make excuses for the kids if they are playing slowly?  If you let them get away with it when they are young, they will grow up to be slow players for life!  Let the kids play, tell them they will be expected to keep up or skip holes as required.  But only if that's enforced for the adults too.  Nothing would piss off and disillusion a 13 year old about golf faster than getting hassled by the rangers for a 1/2 hole gap, then getting stuck behind a foursome of middle aged beer bellies playing a five hour round who get only a friendly wave from the ranger as he toodles on by.

Kids sometimes play slower because they're kids.  Their legs are shorter, the bag is heavier relative to their size, they can't hit the ball as far or as straight, they get distracted, they haven't learned ways to play faster, and on and on.  We don't come out of the womb knowing how to play quickly, and many adults never master it.  It's just that kids are powerless, while the beer bellies pay the bills and fight back.

This is dangerously close to a thread hijack, so no more.  My only point was that seeing the return of caddy programs as a way of growing the sport is pretty much like viewing the return of horse-drawn carriages as a solution to high gas prices.  Gone...
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 12:27:32 AM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Brent Hutto

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2005, 07:06:22 AM »
This is dangerously close to a thread hijack, so no more.  My only point was that seeing the return of caddy programs as a way of growing the sport is pretty much like viewing the return of horse-drawn carriages as a solution to high gas prices.  Gone...

The redoubtable Mr. Crockett has summed up the caddy issue with the perfect analogy. Now I can exit this thread in peace. Well stated, sir.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2005, 10:42:25 AM »
One pet peeve and one point.

Pet peeve first:

It annoys the heck out of me when professional golfers, architects, officials, writers, whomever, use the fact that the game is rather difficult for the vast majority of us to justify their opposition to restricting various technological advances.

I personally don't care if DLIII, Ernie or whoever drives it 350 and every hole is driver/some kind of wedge, but the higher ups should understand that this is not terribly entertaining to watch and will eventually result in fewer viewers.

Also, I don't get that much more enjoyment out of the game now then I did when I first started with a hand me down set including actual wooden woods and blade irons. I've loved the game from the start, in spite of my struggles. So stop using my stuggles to justify not reigning in technology!

What I do care about is: the fact that ever increasing drives are resulting in ever longer new courses, which are less enjoyable to play even from the proper set of tees, and that classic courses are being altered to "combat" this wonderful technology that has every young kid swinging for the fences.

If there was more development of shorter, less expensive, walkable courses and an agreement to stop ripping up classic courses, I personally wouldn't care if they ever reigned in the ball or the clubs. I'd watch less golf on TV, but that's probably a good thing. :)

Enough of the rant, now the other point:

It doesn't take a genius to see that if one truly wants to grow the game - i.e. get more people golfing and more people watching golf on TV - the growth pretty much has to come at the low end of the market. Children whose parents belong to private clubs are probably going to give the game a try regardless of what anyone is doing to encourage growth, so the only way to really grow the game is to get new people in. Most of those new people have to come from other demographics.

In my experience, the two biggest obstacles to new golfers is time and money - I know that's why I waited so long to start playing. And it doesn't take a genius to figure out how negatively the golf arms race affects both of these aspects of the game. It is rather disheartening to me that the other members of the roundtable (the others being the ones that are not Geoff!) don't seem to care about the time or money required to learn and enjoy the game, at least as I infer from their defensive answers to the various questions.

And to anyone who reads this whole post, I owe you a beer. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brent Hutto

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2005, 10:55:28 AM »
And to anyone who reads this whole post, I owe you a beer. :)

Be sure to attend Dixie Cup II, George. I don't care much for beer but we'll find some place that serves Guinness and the first one's on you...

TEPaul

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2005, 12:02:11 PM »
Tom MacWood quoted this from Mike Sweeney's post;

"...the myopic view on certain topics is silly. Rees Jones has designed some wonderful courses..."

And then Tom MacW remarked;

"You're really digging deep to try to make a point...by the way I agree the elderly and the weak should be permitted to use carts."

Tom MacW:

No, Mike Sweeney is not digging deep at all--he's right on the money. This website and many of its participants can be incredibly myopic on certain topics to the point of true silliness. How else could anyone possibly account for the semi-constant refrain on here that Rees Jones and anyone who enjoys his architecture "just doesn't get it"? What could that attitude be but myopic or else true arrogance to think that everyone should like what some of us do or be lableled idiots and unable to "get it"? Get what? Get what they enjoy, even if its not something that most on here enjoys?
 

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2005, 12:27:08 PM »
George -

Good post. You owe me a beer too. ;)

Enjoyment of the game has no correlation with technology improvements. Zero.

It is more likely that there is an inverse correlation. Take Exhibit A-1: participation levels over the last couple of years. Years of remarkable technological advances. Coincidence? Just bad weather? Maybe something more ominous? Nah, couldn't be.

So I resent the David Fay's and the Wally U.'s telling me that they are not rolling back technology for the sake of regular Joe golfers like me.

They know and we know they are resisting checks on equipment for very different reasons.

So spare us the silliness.

Bob

« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 12:41:49 PM by BCrosby »

Kyle Harris

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #89 on: June 10, 2005, 12:35:05 PM »
I am sure it's Rolling Rock out your way George, but in August, I'll take you to a good bar and you can buy me a Yuengling Porter.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #90 on: June 10, 2005, 01:59:34 PM »
George -- You don't owe me a beer. You've already rewarded me sufficiently with your excellent post. Thank you.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #91 on: June 10, 2005, 02:24:41 PM »
Fay says: "It was this desire -- and we have to rethink this -- to create chipping areas. They work in some places, but not everywhere. At 7 there was no place for the ball to stop."

As mentioned earlier, it was the rolled, double-cut, dried out green that caused the problem. A collar of rough shouldn't be necessary to keep PUTTS on the green.

Fay: "But we want to make sure that hitting the fairway is important...(f)or example, next year at the 320-yard 6th hole at Winged Foot West, I'd like to see the rough eight inches high."

EIGHT INCHES? While I agree that hitting the fairway should be at a premium in the US Open, eight inches is silly. It could cause injury.

Fay: "That's the Open's imprimatur -- it's the hardest tournament."

Ok, but look at what that means if you're playing that tournament on a course that was never designed to be the "hardest" golf course. Or, to look at it another way, is "hardest" defined by par? Does this mean that the imprimatur of the US Open is that it always have the highest winning score? This way of thinking, to my mind, makes the original designer of each venue increasingly irrelevant. If Fay's mindset is indicative of the USGA, is it time to take the Open to courses built only in the previous 5 years? 8,000 yards or more?

Shackleford: "...golf, like tennis, is less interesting to watch than it used to be."

This comment is in regards to the technology making the game less fun to watch (and there's something to that notion), but the part of the statement that makes it hard to agree with is the "used to be" part. Does he mean in the 60's? The 70's? There was a period there as Jack tailed off that was about as boring to watch as could be. Perhaps not from a "pure golf" standpoint, but just because there were no compelling personalities in the game. I have to say that right now there are numerous, differing, interesting personalitites in the game of golf who are worth watching.

Fay: "The biggest difference I perceive in the game today is not power, it's the ability to score, the play on and around the green."

I can't say that it's the biggest difference to me, but I think that bunker play around the green in particular has changed. Whether it's the condition of the bunkers themselves, or the architectural configuration, or just the ability of the players, greenside bunkers just don't seem as hazardous as they used to. Bunker splashes to three feet or less seem like the norm now. Has anyone done a study (or is it possible to do one) to determine if up and downs from greenside bunkers are more prevalent now than in the past?

Shackleford: "A lot of people who play can't relate to a tour pro's game."

And that's why people aren't playing? Or watching? I don't agree that I need to "relate" to a tour players game to want to go play. What was it that Bobby Jones said when he saw a young Nicklaus? That he "played a game with which I am not familiar?" Tiger's current game is only a little more out in the stratosphere compared to mine than was the play of Nicklaus then (hell, Nicklaus NOW. I'd love to shoot a 75 at Muirfield). The elephant in the room that they didn't want to talk about is, as Mr. Pazin states - the time and the money. The time issue isn't going to change much, and as long as all of the new courses being built are either private clubs or high-end daily fee courses and balls are $30 a dozen, that isn't going to change either.

Fay: "If you had taken as a mathematical exercise what happened in the '20s and kept adding distance, one could argue that today's championship course should be 7,600 yards, par 75. That hasn't happened."

And maybe that's what SHOULD happen (if you want to keep par as the challenge) instead of drastically altering older layouts. It's the ugly dichotomy - I want to see those great courses, and I want to see the tour pros play them, but I hate to see them get chewed up by driving distances that the architects did not build into their designs, and I hate to see the courses altered so the longer distances won't change the players' scores.

FAY: "How can you say golf is more elitist? Everything argues against that. Before any of us came along, the game was private. It's completely different now."

Before any of you came along was quite a long time ago. Yes, there are more public courses, but most of them top $50 a round to play, at least in my town.

FAY: "Yes, golf is expensive, but so is every other leisure experience."

I'm sure that Fay's yacht is also very pricey. But how expensive is it for a group of guys to play a game of basketball at a local playground? Or baseball at a local field? The ignored question is, can golf exist in a less expensive form to introduce new players from new, lower-income demographic?

Please forgive me for my lack of brevity.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #92 on: June 10, 2005, 03:59:49 PM »
What do you know, those economists I read are right: people respond to incentives!

And Kirk, I'd say Mr. Pazin is my dad, but he's actually Dr. Pazin. I consider everyone on this site to be a friend, even the people I argue with most, so please call me George - or jackass or some other creative name. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #93 on: June 10, 2005, 04:27:49 PM »
George,

I enjoyed your posts...you jackass ;D

TEPaul

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #94 on: June 10, 2005, 04:46:35 PM »
George, can I have a beer too, please, please, pleeeese, you jackass? Actully I hate beer, how's about a couple of glassses of some rotgut red wine?

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #95 on: June 10, 2005, 05:05:06 PM »
George,

You owe me two beers...I read it twice as I am thick.. ;D

Hopefully next year...

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2005, 05:22:11 PM »
 :)

In case I haven't made it abundantly clear yet, I'll gladly buy the first round (and more than my share thereafter) for anyone who makes it to the 'Burgh. I'll even try to dig up some rotgut red wine for Tom P.

The rest of you will have to wait till I make it to your neck of the woods.

Brian might have a longer wait than most, unless fortune smiles on me soon. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #97 on: June 10, 2005, 05:28:23 PM »
If you want to "grow the game" by getting more kids involved, do two things:
1. make golf cheaper; don't urge kids to get a job!
2. make it clear to members of clubs that kids WILL be on the course during the afternoons and summer mornings, that they will be playing less well and possibly somewhat more slowly, and that their presence on the course is part of the club's total program.  

A.G. - You are exactly right!!! The reason more kids don't play golf is because most don't have a place to play that they can afford. If a kid is lucky enough to be born into a family whose parents are members of a club then he/she can play without spending much of their own money. But, if you don't have that option available what do you do?

The problem with the First Tee (and similar programs) is that they don't adequately address course access... kids are introduced to the game then don't have a regular place to play. Golf should be as easy for kids to play as basketball, baseball, or soccer. If kids could play their nearest course for a reasonable "entry level" fee there would be lots more of them taking up the game and sticking with it.

Golf will never draw large numbers of kids until it learns to compete with sports like soccer. Why do so many kids play soccer? Because they have fun!!! Too many kids are introduced to golf as a mechanical endeavor instead of a GAME. Give a kid a stick, a ball, and a hole in the ground... tell him/her to compete against another kid to see who can get the ball into the hole first... then get out of the way... you will have created a golfer for life.

The lack of cheap golf is why most kids don't play golf... it's not because the game is too hard, or the game is not enough fun, or the game has too many rules. For the average kid golf is just too damned exclusive and expensive.

For those of you wishing for a caddie program at your private club ask yourself this question... would you be willing to grant a kid, any kid, who was willing to caddy for you on Saturday or Sunday (for tip only) the unrestricted right to play your course Monday-Thursday afternoons while you are at work?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #98 on: June 11, 2005, 10:37:35 AM »
Kudo's to all involved with the Round Table--especially Agman--the guy that never returns a phone call! :) 8) ;D ;)

One late night recently, I happened to be over at the Southampton Publick House--an evil place where most superintendents from the area get their food and evil liquor, and while driving home, (temporary home) taking the long road home, I happened upon the famed and much maligned Redan 7th at Shinnecock.

It was a somewhat warm and breezy night, and while driving down Tuckahoe, I decided to turn off the lights of my vehicle, shut off the motor and just coast to a stop right at the break in the fence. To my astonishment--and I'm telling you all the truth here--was a work and detail crew of little elves and each one of them that looked like a tiny little minature Seth Raynor, fedora and all, all working on the hole--rolling it, double cutting it and even surmizing somehow they could reinstate the original tee to give the hole its most optimum and true angle, all while under the pointed finger and direction of their leader and King Elf, who happened to look like a much scaled-down version of Charles Blair MacDonald.

So, David Fay was right and he has known about this colony of Seth & C.B. elves all along, knowing that they were completely responsible for the "Shinnecock Massacre." He has been protecting them from us. Why? Because we can't handle the truth! And yes, it was these same elves that rolled the green, "In the Middle of the Night."

Thank you David. Thank you for protecting these little Elfen creatures. Lets just hope your protecting them as WELL as your protecting the Game from people like us.

David Fay, if you happen to be reading this, are the elves going to be making any visits to the Pinehurst area for the Open? What about Southern Pines? Maybe simply to invade the domicile of one Ran Morrissett and delete this forum into cyber space.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2005, 12:23:15 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SI Golf Roundtable
« Reply #99 on: June 11, 2005, 10:45:37 AM »
Tommy's been drinking far too much Long Island iced tea lately.