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Paul_Turner

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Haagsche GC (pics)
« on: June 08, 2005, 09:31:48 AM »
Haagsche (Royal Hague) is on even more spectacular land than Kennemer.  Massive dunes and ridges, the only course I've seen that has similar wild movement is Eastward Ho!  Some fearsome carries too.

Who would think such terrain existed in Holland, eh?  


1st




3rd



3rd


4th


5th


The ridges determine your view here!


The 6th must be one of the hardest holes in the world.  A hige carry followed by:












9th



10th


11th


11th
More Later
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 04:55:04 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

wsmorrison

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2005, 09:37:03 AM »
Wow, Paul!  Who would have thunked?  Those rolling fairways and the iffy lies are marvelously good stuff.  I like the greensites and the interesting approaches.  There seems to be a great variety of colors, textures and most importantly, holes.  

When are you going to write a book "The World's Great Golf Courses That Nobody Knows About"
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 09:38:28 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2005, 09:39:53 AM »
Thanks Paul- World class golfing terrain.

Is that all a sand base?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2005, 09:43:51 AM »
Paul,

Fantastic.  Take out all trees and make the bunkering more dramatic and rugged and a few of those photographs remind me of Sand Hills.  Am I off base?

Regardless, looks like a wonderful place to loiter with intent.

Regards,

Mike  

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2005, 10:24:23 AM »
Paul,

Yes, thanks once again for sharing your travels and your thoughts.

Id agree with Mike on the Sand Hills comparison, although I will say that in its own way some of the trees locations make the golf holes, as they have great colour and texture, different from anything I am certainly used to seeing.

Is that one of the most stunning opening tee shots (apart from the cart path)?  I certainly think so.

I was not going to pass comment until I saw the 10th and 11th.  What superb rolling contours on #10 fairway and an excellent blind?  feature in frontof the green at #11.

@EDI__ADI

NAF

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2005, 10:36:13 AM »
Mike-

when Paul and I played here, it did not feel like being on the moon which is my thinking when I've visited Sand Hills on two occasions.  It felt like a lumpy links course that has forested in a bit and did not play hard an fast (a theme in Holland) so like the Kennemer, the bark was not equal to the bite.  Paul and I played it in a howling northerly wind which made it near impossible unless you are a Texas wind player.

For me, Royal Hague looks terrific and is definitely a must on any lowlands tour, but for some reason despite some heroic holes on the back I find it leaving an odd taste in my mouth.  I just wouldnt hurry back out there.  I'd prefer Kennemer or De Pan on a daily basis.

JJSE- no love on the GCA Ryder Cup?  I thought you were coming... 2 years running.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2005, 10:59:43 AM »
In this dirty old part of the country where the ground refuses to move
People tell me there ain't no use in swinging
Now, my Haagasche, you're so lumpy and pretty
And one thing I know is true,
If you were in Houston I’d be in a lake before I was through,

Watch my drive bound straight down the fairway
Watch it skirt between the straight lined trees
It's been working left and right for no reason at all, (Oh yes I know)

     (Chorus)
     We've gotta get out of this place
     if it's the last thing we ever do
     We've gotta get out of this place
     Girl there's a better fairway for me and you



Great pictures

Did I ever tell you how flat Houston is??
The above song is what I started singing after viewing your latest images.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2005, 11:13:56 AM »
The terrain reminds me more of Crystal Downs and maybe Prairie Dunes in spots.


Paul_Turner

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2005, 12:40:51 PM »
Noel

It probably left an odd taste because you were absolutely knackered by then (jet lag).

Say nice things, or I'll tell 'em what Lut said on the 12th tee :D

PS

For Matt Ward...it's 7600 yds, Slope 155
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 12:42:23 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Marty Bonnar

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2005, 12:44:24 PM »
Paul,
lovely, lovely, just lovely stuff.
I've never seen a golf course here on GCA that I haven't wanted to play more!

FBD

PS I MUST start a thread on the joys of a Paul Turner thread over 2MB Broadband. HEAVEN!
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2005, 12:55:15 PM »
Paul,
   Thanks for posting the pix, looks like marvelous land. Could they get it firm and fast if they wanted? Would it be playable? Looks like a great place to spend a day.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

T_MacWood

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2005, 01:02:38 PM »
Paul
Great pictures...a real roller coaster. How well has the club documented their history?

I have an old scorecard from the 1930's (my father played there), but it appears to be a different course, only 5760 yds.

NAF

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2005, 01:27:23 PM »
Tom-

It is quite sad but there have been a lot of changes at Hague and I'm not sure what year but the golf club changed venues at some stage (that might account for the scorecard) but I am unsure--seems doubtful though as that might be earlier the 20th century.

Paul can add his color but it seemed there have been many changes at the Hague, many instituted and overseen by members of the greens committees without any historical reference to Colt.  On one hole a wonderful ridge that tied into a green was bulldozed b/c of the super's input although he wasnt authorised to do it.  It looks quite amateurish although to be honest, I'm sure I wouldnt have picked it out unaided.  When you see it though, it is an eyesore.

The Hague is big and brawny, quite a great scale but it just lacks a sort of homey charm.. Or maybe as Paul said I was jetlagged after no sleep and 36 holes walking golf all in the same day. Plus Paul and I went out that evening to check out Amsterdam!

Paul-
As per Lut, yes he never saw a ball hooked more than what I did on the 12th but it was into a hooking 30mph wind!  I guess there goes my R&A membership!!!!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 01:36:19 PM by NAF »

NAF

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2005, 01:33:18 PM »
Aerial of the Hague (clubhouse is in the left).. the hole at the far left that doglegs right is the 3rd.. the 2nd goes back towards the clubhouse and the first is a par 5 away from the clubhouse with a lone bunker defending the green




My 2 favorite holes, the 15th,where Colt used the spine of a ridge on the left to make positioning very difficult off the tee if you go left (it becomes almost blind).. and the uphill tough, 14th to a plateau gren




« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 03:20:58 PM by NAF »

David_Tepper

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2005, 01:54:10 PM »
Paul -

Didn't you post pix on this course a year or two ago? I presume these are new pix from your recent visit. The course looks 'greener' than I recall it did in the prior pix.

In any case, a tour of the Dutch courses looks it should go on my 'to do' list. Have you been to any of the Belgium courses- Royal Waterloo or Royal Antwerp?

As always, many thanks for sharing with us.

DT

NAF

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2005, 02:02:37 PM »
David-

Paul is incommunicato most of the time off in an Intel Fabrication Lab or some sort of thing like that.. Having been his compadre I'll give you my thoughts.. We did not do Waterloo or Antwerp in Belgium-- we did Spa and Zoute..

For Holland, I'd say this is the ranking of the top 4..

1) Kennemer
2) Hague
3) De Pan
4) Eindhoven

We didnt see Hilversum which is highly ranked, played Toxandria (give it a miss unless you have a lot of time there) and heard many good things about Frank Pennick's Noordwijk  We did not go to Noordwijk but our intelligence was great terrain, very average greens. If you add in Spa and Zoute to the trip my top 5 would look like

1) Spa (coolest greens/bunkers in Benlux)
2) Kennemer (Great playability/terrain)
3) Zoute (Wonderful inland links like Lytham)
4) Hague (Rolling terrain on steroids)
5) De Pan (Heathland like Colt design with some terrific holes)

If you got to Paris and got to see St. Germain, Chantilly, Mortfontaine Fontainebleau--that would also juggle the line up.

I think the ones in Belgium we missed and should be seen are Royal Sart Tilman and Ravenstein.


Tom Dunne

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2005, 02:03:39 PM »
This was my favorite of the courses I visited during my Paul-Turner-inspired, Frank-Pont-assisted tour of Holland a couple of months ago. Kennemer a close second, and I'd only chalk that up to personal taste.  Haagsche is just such a dramatic landscape and one hell of a walk. I drew an absolutely perfect, sunny, 65* day and somehow had the course pretty much to myself, playing as a single. I loved the blind tee shot over #7, and seeing the fairway rumple out the moment I crested the dune. I loved the gaggles of pheasants wandering around the course with their red plumage "helmets". I loved the sheer challenge of holes like #13 (the green of which is perched almost as high above the fairway as, say, Shinnecock #10) and #14. Perhaps a bit unsung, I think, might be the lovely par 3 #12. It sits on a wide open piece of the property, but very high ground, and the wind swirls around there more than down in the valleys. Tricky little devil. Oddly enough, I thought the two least interesting holes on the course were #1 and #18.

One thing that Frank said to me (at Toxandria, actually) was how impressed he was by how Colt used fairways as a kind of (what I imagine to be quarter-, even eighth of a stroke) hazard. And when one plays these courses of his in the Netherlands, it starts to become uncanny to see that he did indeed use natural wrinkles in the landscape to separate great drives from merely adequate ones, and not just by kicking a long drive even further down a speed ramp, but by providing a better view of the green to a well-positioned shot, etc. This is especially the case with something like #6. I think it would take a good amount of time to fully understand the *fairways* at a place like Haagsche, much less the greens.

Great stuff. Great pictures. Makes me want to go back!

Paul_Turner

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2005, 02:49:50 PM »
Noel

No way Spa is the best of that bunch!  Or are they not in order?

I think you meant 14 and 15 as faves?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 03:05:11 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike_Cirba

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2005, 03:02:41 PM »
These pictures to me are the clearest indicators of what a flattish golf course is up against in an attempt to be a "great course".  

Some weeks ago we had a discussion about a course some of us played during a GCA outing, where a few of us contended that although the course wonderfully utilized the existing features in a minimalist way, there just wasn't enough overall interest in the terrain to raise the course into the stratospheric realm where some contributors see it.  That isn't the fault of the architect, or anyone else, but sometimes lay of the land courses have to dance with who brung 'em.

Great pictures...talk about a course one would be excited to run to the first tee!  

Thanks for sharing, Paul!  ;D
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 03:03:17 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Stuart Hallett

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2005, 03:14:20 PM »
Paul,

Great pictures, this course could be classed as a mountain range in Holland.

It's only in a golfing context, that wrinkles, humps & bumps can be described as a turn on, and this course seems to have it all.

As you and Noel mentioned, Kennemer and Haagsche played too soft, this may be due to spring showers and lush early growth. It would be interesting to know what it plays like in July or August, I hope that both courses would play a lot firmer to promote a bit golf on the ground and not just in the air.

I must admit, I fear that Holland has been hit by the Green is Good Brigade, quite popular in Northern Europe.

NAF

Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2005, 03:25:26 PM »
Paul-

What had cooler greens? Spa or Hague?  Cooler bunkering? Spa or Hague or Eindhoven?? Come on you slackjaw git, give Simpson his DUE!  and of course the terrain is better at Kennemer/Hague/Zoute.  But I just want you to give PROPS to Simpson!!!

Miguel CIRBA- you want to see a GREAT FLAT course--then Monsieur Hallet is your man as he is the man at St. Germain-- A Colt course which I liked as much as Hague/Kennemer etc for its awesome cross bunkers and angles..What Colt did there was a triumph of creativity on blah landscape.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 03:26:38 PM by NAF »

Tom Dunne

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2005, 03:44:09 PM »
Mike Cirba,

The run to the first tee at Haagsche would be worthy of an Ethiopian marathoner--the hilltop on which the first tee sits offers one of the most spectacular vistas on the course. I'd *excitedly walk*, not run, to that particular tee.

Stuart Hallett,

Given that 2/3 of Holland could easily be underwater if the worst predictions of global warming come to pass, I think they have a vested interest in adopting Green policies. That's a trade-off I can accept in exchange for less than fast-and-firm playing conditions.


Paul_Turner

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2005, 03:53:22 PM »
Noel

Spa is a very fine course and yes great greens and bunkers (which I know you're a sucker for).    Just shocked to see you having it tops of the 5 :o  Get a grip, man.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 03:59:08 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Stuart Hallett

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2005, 04:03:52 PM »
Tom,

I think you misunderstood the meaning of Green is Good. I meant excessive watering and feeding of playing surfaces. The native vegetation looks good and is probably ensuring sustainable habitats of ecological interest.

I would think that the environmental impact of the golf course is too small to cause mass flooding.

Have I made myself any clearer ?

Tom Dunne

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Re:Haagsche GC (pics)
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2005, 04:13:21 PM »
Stuart,

Yes, I misunderstood you. No worries  :). And I agree with you on that count. Curiously, Frank Pont mentioned that at the Kennemer (and I hope I'm not botching this somehow) that the dunes around the course are being used to naturally purify municipal water, contributing as a side effect a softer golf course.

As for your environmental impact comment, that's true. However, from my outsider's perspective, it seems that the Dutch restrictions on pesticide usage, on golf courses and elsewhere, are part and parcel of a larger agenda designed to protect their rather tenuous hold on their environment. I shouldn't have overstated my case, but this type of policy does make sense to me in their case, and the Dutch links are pretty damn great even in the absence of Fifian turf conditions.


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