What courses to see/play around Cooperstown?

[PThomas]

Wayne -- Carlton used to kill the Cubs for years...I wonder how many of his wins were against them

and stavros, Is that the same Mello Carmello Martinez that eventually wound up -- and sucked for, I believe -- the Cubs??

[astavrides]

Wayne -- Carlton used to kill the Cubs for years...I wonder how many of his wins were against them

and stavros, Is that the same Mello Carmello Martinez that eventually wound up -- and sucked for, I believe -- the Cubs??

probably.  he sucked for everyone else.  i take that back, he was adequate.  and he made a lot of money, so im jealous about that.  

If i remember that 'trade', wes chamberlain was an up and coming prospect,  this was 1989 or so, and the pirates made a clerical error or something and put him on waivers or something, and the phillies felt bad and we're out of bags of peanuts to ship to pittsburgh in return so they gave them mello carmelo.  The next year the pirates lost barry bonds, and they probably havent had a winning season since.  I stopped following them and couldnt name 3 players on any one of their teams since.  

[Kyle Harris]

Von Hayes was where it was at during that era...  

[Jason Mandel]

Wayne,

I was at the game last night with my cousin and uncle.  I mentioned how you were going up there to see Sandberg get inducted and brought up how that could have been one of the worse trades in Phils history.

My cousin shot back first with the Von Hayes (they traded 5 players for Von Hayes, who actually joined white manor for a short time).  My uncle then stepped in and said Danny Tartabull.  I think that takes the cake.

I think todays trade may work out though.  This team is starting to come around...

[Bill_McBride]

If you're talking worst all time trades, Gaylord Perry for "Sudden" Sam McDowell ("suddenly" he was out of the majors!) and Orlando Cepeda for whoever they got from the Cardinals for him, rank as the worst ever for those who grew up as SF Giants fans.  

Back on thread, my then 12 year old son and I played that little Otsego course, original 1897, and had a great time.  Very funky and very sporty, a GCA special.

[Scott_Burroughs]

As an Oriole fan, Glenn Davis for Steve Finley, Pete Harnisch, and some guy named Curt Schilling is an all-time bad trade.  All 3 played in at least one All-Star game, Finley helped Arizona win a WS, has had a solid career, and is a great fielder, and Schilling helped y'all's Phillies to a WS, in addition to 2 WS won with Arizona and Boston.

Davis fizzed out pretty quickly after a bar-fight/broken jaw and back troubles.

[Bill Gayne]

If we're just covering really bad baseball trades then John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander needs to be high on the list. It was one of these trading deadline deals a veteran for a triple A prospect. Alexander successfully completed the season for the Tigers and Smoltz completed the next decade plus for the Braves.

[Mike_Cirba]

Remember when Juan Marichal (while batting) intentionally corked Johnny Roseboro in the head with his bat?  



I was a Minnesota Twins fan at the time, in the glory days of Tony Oliva, Harmon Killebrew, Jim Kaat, and Dean Chance(?), and they had their one shot at the World Series, only to be throttled by Koufax & Drysdale.



What does this have to do with this thread and baseball trades?  Not much...just some memories of the time.

Otsega sounds neat.  

[wsmorrison]

"5 for 1" used to be the nickname of Von Hayes.  There was so much pressure on the guy (and Philadelphia-style pressure at that) and the constant ribbing he got from Pete Rose and others, he just wasn't nearly good enough to merit that kind of trade and was bound to fail.

Mike,  

There were no replays of that Marichal incident and there was a lot of confusion at the time as to what happened.  The following is a recount from baseballLibrary.com:

"On August 22, 1965, Marichal faced Sandy Koufax at Candlestick Park in the heat of a tight pennant race. The Giants and Dodgers had come close to a brawl two days earlier over catcher's interference calls. Los Angeles's Maury Wills had allegedly tipped Tom Haller's mitt with his bat on purpose, and Marichal's best friend, Matty Alou, retaliated by tipping John Roseboro's face mask. Roseboro nearly beaned Alou with his return throw to the mound. In the August 22 game, Marichal had flattened Wills and Ron Fairly with pitches when Roseboro purportedly asked Koufax to hit Marichal. When Koufax refused, Roseboro's return throw came close to Marichal's head. Name-calling ensued, until Roseboro suddenly ripped off his mask and stood up. Marichal rapped the catcher on the head with his bat. What followed was one of the most violent brawls in major league history. Willie Mays led away Roseboro, who had suffered a concussion, while Dodger Bob Miller tackled Marichal, Alou slugged Miller, and Tito Fuentes menaced the Dodgers with his bat. Roseboro sued Marichal, but eventually dropped the suit. Marichal was fined $1750, was suspended for a week, and missed two starts as the Giants finished two games behind the Dodgers. Years later, Marichal said, "I feel sorry that I used the bat."

Roseboro campaigned for Marichal's election into the Hall of Fame and was thanked by Marichal in his induction speech.  My brother played golf with Marichal during the Hall of Fame tournament one year and thought he was a great guy.

I think my sons and I will play Otsega one of the days we're up there.  It sounds like it'll be fun and my boys (ages 14 and 13) can hang in there for 9 holes better than 18.

[corey miller]

It's Koufax's fault.

[Kyle Harris]

Didn't the Phillies get a bunch of players from the Angels for Von Hayes in '91 or '92?

Mariano Duncun comes to mind, maybe Kevin Stocker? For some reason I am thinking they got middle infield help in that trade. I was 8 at the time...

Wayne? Anybody?

[wsmorrison]

Corey,

Hard to believe in that day if a pitcher hit two of your batters you would not throw at one of the players on the other team.  Was Koufax known to be a guy that refused to throw at players?

Sal Maglie, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal were among a bunch that sure did.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

The Phillies got Ruben Amaro, Jr.--what a great job he's doing as Asst GM   and Kyle Abbot from the Angels for Von Hayes.

Dale Murphy relegated 5 for 1 to the bench so no teams were offering much for Hayes and he wasn't worth much.

[Kyle Harris]

That's right... Kyle Abbot...

The ray of cloud in that otherwise sunshiney 1993 season.

Wasn't he like 0-11 with an ERA around my current playing handicap (7ish)?

BTW, I was at the game where Dale Murphy hit his only Grand Slam as a Phillie. I was also at the game the night Jeff Parrot was traded to Atlanta for him.  

[wsmorrison]

Speaking of sunshine.  It sure wasn't sunshiney during game 4 when the Phils blew the 14-9 lead in the seventh and lost 15-14.  Lots of records broken that game.  But it was long, rainy and cold loss and buried the Phils for the series.  Remember Dykstra just missed a towering, juice-induced, grand slam inches from the pole?  That would have given them a huge lead that would've deflated Toronto for sure.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Wayne,

I was at that game (and game 5, the Schilling masterpiece, just a few years removed from being traded by Baltimore).  Dykstra had 2 homers in that game already, before almost hitting the grand slam.

[wsmorrison]

Scott,

I hope you had better rain gear than I had for that game.  I now swear by my Zero Restriction stuff.

Dykstra had a great playoffs that year, got a huge salary jump and his body started falling apart fast!  Maybe it would've been better if he sucked during the playoffs.  The Phils tied up a lot of money on that guy.  Do you recall how scrawny he was with the Mets?  I was too naive to think the worst of him at the time, but it certainly seems like Vitamin S was part of his and many other regimens.

Schilling was an amazing pitcher for the Phils and I'm glad he won some WS titles.  He's a good guy, especially considering the modern player.  He really stands out.  Schilling does a lot of good work for Lou Gehrig's disease and even named his son Gehrig.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I was in the upper deck in RF and barely under cover.  A little wind and we felt some moisture, but were OK most of the game.  I liked that we were allowed to bring in outside food to the game.  A stop at Wawa for a sub and we were fine and dandy.

Dykstra wasn't the only one who suddenly became big "overnight".  A guy named Bonds was about 40 pounds lighter in his Pirate days.

Brady Anderson hits 50 home runs in a season after not having more than 21 prior to that (and not having 24 any season after)?

[Kyle Harris]

Scott, my friend...

NOBODY stops at Wawa for a sub. You stop at Navy Yards to pick up submersibles.

Wawa, however, does sell a fine variety of hoagies.

RF in Veteran's Stadium... Willie Stargell territory.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Hey, I'm not a Philly local.    It was a 2-year stopover for me in that area (and I haven't liked the term "hoagie" since high school - they used it and they were pretty bad).  Sub is the term I like.  Not big on hero or grinder either.

In fact, I'm off to Jersey Mike's Subs right now  

[Kyle Harris]

Well, the thing was invented on Hoag Island in Philadelphia, hence hoagie  

Hero really gets me going, too. That's a fight on a Penn State campus.

[scott_wood]

Wayne, Otsego would be  a perfect option for teenagers with short(er) attention spans.....BUT DO sneak up to Teugaga, even if it's a 6am quickie tour...it's the unadulterated "real thing' that admirers of classic architecture get real excited about...really good "efficient" use of rolling  land, green complexes....what so many on this site would lvoe to have as their "home course" ( especially if they knew the low/reasonable cost )

[wsmorrison]

Thank you, Scott.  I will sneak out in the early morn and catch the sunrise out on the course.  They don't shoot guys from PA sneaking out on the course do they?  Actually I'll go straight to the superintendent's office and tell them I heard about their course on GCA and had to see it!

[Mike_Cirba]

I will sneak out in the early morn and catch the sunrise out on the course.  They don't shoot guys from PA sneaking out on the course do they?  Actually I'll go straight to the superintendent's office and tell them I heard about their course on GCA and had to see it!

Wayne,

If you tell him that, you can almost be assured you'll be shot.  

I still can't go into Ardmore without police escort.  

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

If you're in Ardmore and Tommy Naccarato is in the car with you and there's a red or orange basket popping through the sunroof, you'll get a police escort alright...straight to the holding cell