[Jason Topp]

I've always really enjoyed playing staightforward 150 yard par threes.  It seems to me that on most new courses they no longer exist if a person is playing either the back tees or the next set forward.  Why?

[Tim_Weiman]

Jason,

I don't know the answer to your question, but Sebonac will have such a hole......the second set will play right around the 150 mark (if I remember correctly)........downhill to a well guarded green with the water in the background.

Back tees are set up 175 ish.

[RJ_Daley]

I agree.  I think most great designs ought to have one great par 3 of 150 or less yards.  

Now, "straight forward", I don't know what you may be getting at Jason.  Do you mean tough birdie, easy par?  Or, perhaps, you don't feel it ought to have trickery, complexity, deception.  

I do think that the hole should be very complex if it is an 8I to wedge.  There has to be dire consequences for missing that so called "straight forward" and shortish shot, IMHO.  The shorter the hole, the more contour and 3 putt potential ought to exist, I think.  Or, big trouble for the missed green.  17 SandHills (150) with killer bunkers, 11 Wild Horse (125) with bunkers and big time contour and large green with distinct sections come to mind.  2 Sutton Bay (148?) was pretty interesting too, as both a drop shot and with the consequences of the missed shot.

[TEPaul]

Rather than just looking at par 3s vis-a-vis distance I think a well balanced set of par 3s from the tips should offer good players a full selection of shots--eg a short iron, mid-iron, long iron and possibly a wood.

It's interesting to read how Crump at PVGC (or Colt/Crump) cogitated over this. Merion East offered the same balanced "through the bag" selection of par 3s.

Today 150 yard par 3s are probably PW-9 iron for good players.  

[Willie_Dow]

Tom

You are right on here !  But you left out another valuable consideration, various tee box elevations for the same hole.

Willie

[TEPaul]

"Tom
You are right on here !  But you left out another valuable consideration, various tee box elevations for the same hole."

Willie:

That's a good point. As far as differing tee elevations, something makes me think you miss the two levels of the old tee on #13 Merion East.

I think tees from differing angles is another wonderful facet that can make par 3 holes play so much more interesting. The best examples I can think of are the sets of tees on either side of the previous green on Merion's #9 and Gulf Stream's #9 (the latter being a particular favorite of Donald Ross for that reason).

[Geoffrey Childs]

I concur with the views posted so far.

My biggest pet peeve with way too many modern courses has to do with their seemingly formulaic approach to card length.  From non-championship tees it seems that the great majority of the par 4's will be say 350-390 yards with none more then 425.  Similarly no par 3 will be more then 190 or so and par 5's will range from 480-530 yards.  This will get the average course out to 63-6400 yards or so for most play.

BORING

Why was it that a Dev Emmet or a Donald Ross could build numerous courses with similar card yardage but include the 450 yard par 4, 120 and 220 yard par 3's and the 475 and 590 yard par 5's?

Is that kind of variety and challenge too much for the modern player to endure?

[Bill Gayne]

Geoff,

I agree at times it getting to formulaic. I think you could easily have four par threes of very similar distance that would make a great quartet if there was sufficient variation in the green complexes, elevation changes, wind direction, and use of hazards. In factors that constitute quality par threes, I would place distance as fifth behind the four previosly mentioned.

The better modern payers can handle the different factors. Others look at the distance plate on the tee and see 150 and grab the same iron every time because it's the 150 club.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have always felt the 15th at Cypress is a wonderful short par 3. It plays anywhere from 130 to 165 depending on the wind for me. It is usually in the 140 to 150 range though. My childhood club Bayou Desaird in Monroe Louisiana had a great 150 par 3 4th that got lengthen during a 1980's renovation. I made my first hole in one there. My current home club Oakborne Cc has a great 140 to 165 par 3 9th which may be the best hole on the course. I made my 2nd hole in one there.

[Geoffrey Childs]

The second hole at The Kingsley Club is about as good a 150 yard hole as you will find.



The narrow front section of the green and the severe penalty for missing the target that could result in a big number make this a thrilling one shotter.

As stated above, everyone playing the hole should have a comfortable club for the shot but decisions like going for a pin located anywhere on the front or in the back left or just taking the middle of the green and getting on to #3 create interesting golfing.

[Jason Topp]

That's what I'm talking about

[Chris_Clouser]

Excellent pick Geoffrey to prove your point.  

I know from experience how close you have to be to perfection to go after the pin on that hole.  I hit a beautiful shot with Brad K and Mike in my group last summer.  It went right at the pin and almost came to stop within ten feet.  Almost...    It then trickled off of the back and got stuck in the thick stuff surrounding the back bunker.  Just trying to get out I bladed the ball and rolled into the front right.  I then proceded to hit into the middle of the green and saw it drift down the slope and settle in the far right side of the green.  I then two-putted for my all-world double.  

Kingsley is one of those courses I would love to play at at least once a month.  Too much of an opportunity for lost balls to make it an everytime out course, but very good.  

[Craig Van Egmond]

Can't believe that #2 at Prairie Dunes hasn't come up, what a great mid length par 3 (about 160 yards though). Short is better than long.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/000003031.jpg

[Jason Topp]

[Craig Van Egmond]

Thanks Jason!!

[PThomas]

which is harder to design:  a great short par 3 or a great short par 4??  or are they equally difficult to do?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Both are great when done right.

[Paul_Daley]

Geoffrey: That is a beautiful photo of The Kingsley Club's
2nd hole. Great mood and light. The 'business' end of the
hole makes it look like a terrific challenge. It is interesting to note how MDV and his team have incorporated a bunker-style that completely harmonises with the landform. By contrast, the bunker-style at Prairie Dunes in the photo seem variable, and not all together in sync with the landform.
 

[Geoffrey Childs]

Paul

I agree with you.  Your good eye must match Ran's for it is his photo from the course review on the site that I "borrowed" for this example.

Unlike Chris, I think I would relish having the opportunity to play TKC all the time rather then once a month. I think it is one of the great modern designs, a real home run if you will.

#2 at Prairie Dunes is great as well (I see your point about the bunkers) but it seemed to require considerably more then a 150 yard shot the two days I played it.  Maybe the extra 10 yards and the uphill nature of the shot takes it out of that "comfort range" of a stock 150 yard shot.

[corey miller]

I agree with Doc Childs on PD #2.  It is not a very comfortable shot when you must aim out of the picture because of the wind.

[Gerry B]

here is a nice new 150yd par 3 - the 17th  at Friars Head from the second to back tees at approx 135 yds - must be approx 150 yds from the tips - it is a great one   - the emperor can confirm the exact yardage

[Paul_Daley]

Geoffrey:

I've never played Prairie Dunes but I know that Chris Clouser is a great judge of a course and admires it greatly. Plus it has always been one of the US courses that Australian GCA junkies think about, carrying the Maxwell name, being wild and wooly, and so forth. I just wonder: is that mundane bunkering on the 2nd hole indicative of the entire course, or just a poor example?  

[Craig Sweet]

Multi-tee boxes is the key.  On our course we sometimes have every par 3 set up at the same length. Ususally, that's because the person setting up wasn't paying attention to pin locations or got caught up in watching the wildlife on the course.

The other day I move the tee's....I set up one par 3 at about  200 yards...one at 165...one at less than 130 and the another at 150...with any luck a golfer playing 18 holes had to use 4 different clubs off the tee's on the par 3's.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Paul,

      If you haven't looked at the Prairie Dunes course profile by Ran you should, those bunkers may look mundane but you do not want to be in them. That right front bunker is a bear.

    Also you can go to http://www.prairiedunes.com and take their virtual tour.

    Coore/Crenshaw and Jeff Bradley have been doing some bunker work there and they are started to look a little woolier.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Paul

Hopefully Brad Miller and Jason Blasberg will chime in here.  Both were at PD recently.

I don't think that photo does justice to the look overall, however, your point about the aesthetics in general between TKC and PD is spot on on my opinion. As stated, they are true hazards that are to be avoided except perhapts to take shelter from the wind!

PD is in fact a course where using the word GREAT is appropriate and not at all overstating the case. Corey's statement about the effect of the wind on #2 is appropriate as well.  There is no comfort on the tee at PD #2 and certainly it will never be a "stock 150 yard shot" because downwind is no bargain on that hole.

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