[ChipOat]

I had the pleasure of visiting the Greenbrier this past week with my family and am happy to report that it's designation by at least one publication as "America's premier resort" is well founded.  What an awesome place.

I made it a point to walk MacDonald's Old White Course and Nicklaus' Greenbrier Course, both of which are closed during the winter.  The Old White is undergoing some restoration although the manager of that project, Robert Harris, wasn't there for me to talk to so I have no details.

George Bahto's book makes it clear that the course was clearly intended from the outset to be a resort layout so I wasn't expecting National, Creek or Fishers.  But I really wasn't prepared to be THAT disappointed.

Examples:

Redan - #8  While the basic configuration is clear if you know what you're looking for, the front bunker is only modestly deep, the back bunker has no depth at all, and the slope of the green is pretty close to flat - at least on the left 2/3.

Alps - #13  What Alps is this??  It's a pleasant, slightly uphill par 4 with no hill of any kind to hit over and no cross bunkers in front of the green.  Was this ever an Alps?

Cape - #14  What Cape is this?  There's no water at all except for a creek about 25 yards behind the green and the bunkering doesn't suggest a Cape-like strategy either.

The greens on Eden (#15) and Punchbowl (#9) were under construction so perhaps that part of the renovation will be more authentic.

While Bahto's chapter on the course mentions the usual collection of classic par 3's (including a Biarritz) plus a Road Hole, if there's a Short, Road or Biarritz out there, they're not named as such and I sure couldn't find them.

Also, the slope of the greens on the entire course appeared to be quite benign.

In summary, whether the course was bastardized over the years or is pretty much as our heroes laid it out, The Old White is the lamest excuse for a MacDonald/Raynor creation I've ever seen (I've only seen 7 - all here in the NE plus Mid Ocean).

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but the Nicklaus course looked much more interesting at first inspection.

I do look forward to playing both courses someday, but I can see why Snead had his 59 on The Old White.

[Dave_Miller]

Chip:

You're correct about the Greenbrier being an awesome place.  It is pretty incredible.

I played both the Old White and the Nicklaus courses a couple of different times in the early and mid 80's.

As I recall the Old White Course was pretty mundane even back then.  Not too much of a challenge.  Pretty short, pretty ordinary greens and really not a whole lot of challenge.  The only real joy was just the fact that one got to play golf.

The Nicklaus course, again from memory, was a better course and a more interesting design and certainly a better challenge.

I don't know if the Old White was bastardized or not but even as far back as the early 80's it was pretty ordinary.  Certainly not as good as the rest of McDonald and Raynor's work.

Ed and I should be in Manhattan around 11:00 AM on Friday.  I'll call you this week.
Best,
Dave

[wsmorrison]

I have a routing map on a 2' topo by Seth Raynor for a proposed new 18 hole golf course proposed in May 1920 for the White Sulphur Springs Inc. Mechanical Department.  The location of the course seems to be on much of the property that was the 9 hole course by Alex Findlay that is NLE.  According to Cornish and Whitten, the original Old White Course by CBMacdonald and SRaynor was constructed in 1915.  This was followed by Findlay's 9 holer (?date), George O'Neil's (Philadelphian 1883-1955) Greenbrier Course in 1925, and Dick Wilson's Lakeside Course in 1962 redesigned by Jack Nicklaus.  I am curious to know if this proposed Raynor course was ever built.  The course was shown in a stick routing to be completely south east of Howards Creek and south of the casino and tennis courts.  Some of it is on the land that occupied the 4th, 8th, and 9th holes of the 9 hole course.  It was a relatively short course at just over 5900 yards.  I have spoken to George Bahto about the drawing and intend to bring it to the Winter Gathering.  He is, of course, interested in the proposed (actual?) course plans.  If anyone has any info on this, please contact George or myself.  Thanks.
Wayne

[ChipOat]

Wayne:

According to George's very own book on page 165, the original Greenbrier Course that is now Nicklaus' design was done by Seth Raynor.  No mention is made of Dick Wilson.

Does this answer your question or add further confusion?

[Craig_Rokke]

Hole #1 of the Old  White is listed as one of GOLF's Top 500
holes in the world. They describe it as a "postcard quality"
hole with the Alleghenys in the distance. Snead considered this downhill dogleg the toughest on the course. Good hole?

Also, if you know, Chip, are the Greenbrier's rates lower
through the winter season?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Craig,
The first is a fine opener, one of the best you will find at a resort course.  With guests sipping drinks on the patio beside you it reminds me of few other great opening holes.  The trees pinch the fairway, making the approach very difficult.  It is a very solid hole, arguably the best on the resort property.

Rates a lower through the winter, but the courses do not officially open until April 1.

Chip,
While I believe that many changes have occured over the years, I still prefer it to the other two courses.
The holes that seem to have been altered if they were ever true to their names are the eighth (Redan), ninth (Punchbowl), 13 (Alps), 14 (Cape) and 15 (Eden).

The 8th seems closest to being a genuine Redan hole.

Someone told me the front fairway bunker on nine was once more intimidating, but I never heard confirmation on that.

The Alps hole is a mystery to me.

The only thing I can imagine with the Cape hole is that the creek was once much more a factor.  However, the current (original?) positioning of the tee does not allow one to take the more direct line (over the bunker.) The hole plays rather straight now, which deceives the name.

Eden: see Alps.

When I was last at the resort (two years ago), everyone insisted that Raynor had nothing to do with the project, and gave sole credit to CB.  

George's book did not go into great deal about that, so hopefully he will chime in here.  If I remember correctly he said Raynor did the construction(?).

[wsmorrison]

Chip,

It seems as though the Nicklaus redesign (at least according to C+W) was not on  Dick Wilson's Lakeside Course but on the Greenbrier Course by George O'Neil in 1925.  Sorry, I got this wrong in my first post on this thread.  Never having been to the Greenbrier I have no idea what exists over there or anything about the design(s) history.  George Bahto does not cite O'Neil as an architect on the site.

O'Neil, born in Philadelphia, had a design practice in Chicago and Cleveland where he worked with Jack Daray, Jack Croke,  and Joseph Bowman.  Interestingly, Albert Lasker (for whom O'Neil built Melody Farms GC) helped him out financially in his later years as his health failed him.  O'Neil built courses in FL, IL, IN, and WV.  He remodeled courses in CA, IL, and VA (Flynn's CC of Virginia James River Course that Fred Findlay and Buddy Loving had a hand in redesigning as well).

It would seem from the materials on hand that Findlay built the 9 hole Lakeside Course in 1910 and Macdonald designed and Raynor built the Old White Course in 1915 (C+W) or 1913-1914 (Bahto) and Raynor proposed adding a new 18 on some of the ground of the Findlay 9 in 1920.  The Old White Course was north of Howards Creek and was untouched by the Raynor proposal of 1920.  

It seems a bit muddled as Bahto makes no mention of a George O'Neil as architect of record on the Greenbrier Course.  Bahto clearly states that it is Seth Raynor that designed the Greenbrier Course and that Nicklaus went on to redesign this course before the Ryder Cup.  

The drawing I have would seem to be the course that Bahto references (1923 in his book) as a new 18 that replaced part of an existing 9 holes.  I'm not sure what Bahto means by Raynor redesigning and rebuilding the old Findlay course.  Maybe Raynor added 3 holes to make the course a 9 holer again with the addition of  holes that were lost to the new 18.  The date of the Raynor drawing I have is 1920 and indicates changes to the Findlay 9 where holes 1,2,17, and 18 of his proposed 18 taking land occupied by 4, 8, and 9 of the Findlay 9 hole course.  

The map I have indicates the new 18 hole course as being 5915 yards and not the 6313 he mentions in the book.  The hole yardages are as follows:
400, 125, 440, 310, 310, 410, 400, 420, 330
380, 175, 250, 280, 180, 425, 500, 180, 400
I don't know how this fits into things.

Bahto says that Findlay did the Lakeside Course (9 holes) in 1910 then Raynor did a redesign in 1923 and Dick Wilson came in in 1962 and changed it to 18 holes.  C+W says that Findlay did the Lakeside and Wilson did a redesign.  Perhaps Wilson used the 9 existing holes (6 by Findlay and 3 by Raynor?) and added 9 to create 18.  Just conjecture.  

In any case, it would seem there is a discrepency between C+W and Bahto on the attribution of the Greenbrier Course (O'Neil vs. Raynor) and the history of the Lakeside Course (was Raynor involved?).  It is clear that both Bahto and C+W says that Nicklaus did a redesign of the Greenbrier Course.

Is this muddled enough?  Clearly there are some questions that need answering.  

[George Bahto]

First - Old White is being worked over by an Virginia based architect - hopefully it will be a true restoration for here is an opportunity to really do one without consideration for modern play since it is resort oriented ..............  

There should be no reason for ANYONE TO PUT THEIR FOOTPRINT ON THIS COURSE - (those capitals were not a typo)

Let me see if I can clear this up - it is confusing.

1. My book(s) only deals with early architecture or the original intent of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks and hardly will ever go into revisions unless it is really important.

example: Sleepy Hollow has been altered so many times it would not make sense for my purpose to go into all the renovations ....... unless you were doing a club or some other specific documentation of their course.

I'll be dealing with nearly 100 courses so imagine if I were to drag all these modifications into each story - where would you stop?  so I decided "original intent" was where I would go.

2. Old White: 4th course built by the Macdonald/Raynor team after NGLA.

My impression when I first saw it was yikes, what happened here?" OK, a resort course, but it looked like it was flattened by a huge steamroller. Macdonald talked about this course a lot and played here a lot - I doubt it was too mundane if he did that - so I can only surmise it was made easier over the years. He was proud of this place.

Bob Conte, their historian and a wonderful guy, does a great job and we've compared and shared info over the years. They have a lot of material, as do I, but there seems to be an area of lost information. This was probably during the war when the gov't took the entire resort over to house "aliens" (gee, imagine that!   ).

I would assume that would have been the time when something happened to the undualtions, the greens, the bunkering - it's bad now. They (prisoners) wrecked the buildings during their "vacation!"

The course is sad!

2. The Greenbrier course: The resort had Macdnald/Raynor come back on the pretext of making some improvments on Old White. They did want that but they also wanted them to build another course. They felt that CB and SR would not come back just to do a modification on Old White.

They did both - improved on Old White an built the second course, The Greenbrier (the present JN course) (the JN course was built basically for the upcoming Ryder Cup

3. I found out thru some old articles that they (CB & SR)  also expanded the short course to an 18-hole short course - did it over but I think they left one or two holes intact (I have to look at my notes about that).

Bob Conte did not know about this and thought it was the Finlay until it was done over much later.

Ron and Geoffrey did a marvelous job on their books - but  it is near impossible to always to have every detail and date correct. Their book(s) should be a general guide - and a damn good one - about what has taken place on the courses they document.

This resort is in a class of its own - fabulous.

I wanted to get involved in the present project but .........  

- anyhow, let's hope this new "change" to the course will be authentic. (I'd better stop here)

I'll take questions if you like - this is all based on what I turned up - does not mean it is all correct but certainly is more what was documented before.

By the way their club history by Mr. Conte is terrific and should be included in your library - if they have any still available

[Tom Doak]

We interviewed for the consulting job at The Greenbrier, and while there, I saw some pretty good old aerial photos of the place.  Old White looked much more interesting in the old days, but the real grabber was the original Greenbrier course.  It looked to me as if there were several holes on it which Macdonald and Raynor hadn't used anywhere else, but it did look like their work!

I didn't get the impression that the resort really wanted to "restore" the Old White course, but just to say that they had.  I don't know who was hired to do the work, but not us.

[George Bahto]

correction: they did not expand the short course to 18 - just did the 9 over - sorry (getting old, I guess)

[Steve Wilson]

I played the Old White back in 1988 when I didn't know C. B. Macdonald from Ray Croc.  Since then I discovered golf course architecture and GCA.  I learned that one of the major pieces missing in my golf experience resume was a Raynor/Macdonald course.  By then I had learned that the Old White and the original Greenbrier courses were designed by this famous duo.  But, try as I might, I couldn't recall any of the prominent features so often described and lauded on this board.  

I didn't know whether my recognition was retarded or my recollection faulty, but with Chipoat's description I am simultaneously relieved that I wasn't suffering from complete GCA illiteracy and disappointed that the surviving course at the Greenbrier was apparently a lesser C.B. effort.

That being said, I did enjoy my experience at the Greenbrier as I had a caddie who had been there since 1947.  He was worth two or three shots a side to me.  If I could have afforded it I would have adopted him.

And also kudos to the first hole.  It's one of the best opening tee shots in golf as you walk out of the pro shop and tee off from a pavilion in full view of patrons and staff.  And as I recall it's a difficult opener.  Al, my caddie, described it as the toughest hole on the course.

[wsmorrison]

George,

Is there no connection between George O'Neil and the design of the Greenbrier Course?  I certainly don't know, I am just repeating the attribution in Cornish and Whitten.  Of course, given the scope of their book, there are bound to be discrepencies in dates and attributes.  Perhaps this is so in this particular case.  It is a great work, but as you say a guide and a starting point.  Are there Macdonald or Raynor drawings for the original Greenbrier Course?  Is the Greenbrier Course in the same location as the proposed 1920 Raynor plan as I described above?  Was an 18 hole course built on the property in 1925 as described by C+W and attributed to O'Neil?

I know we intended to get together twice recently to study the Raynor drawing but unfortunately couldn't pull it off.  I will bring the drawing to Alpine for you to study at the Winter Gathering and hopefully it will help in clearing up the historical issues.  The discovery process never ceases.

[ChipOat]

George:

Is it truly possible that the original course was so severely "amended" that all traces of a true Alps and Cape were completely eliminated?  And that Biarritz and Road were simply re-routed out of existence?

Bunkers and green complexes are easy to soften/eliminate.  But water hazards and hills??

Do you see ANY resemblance to Alps or Cape on those 2 holes or ANY holes that show Road Hole strategy or a Biarritz green complex?

I'm wondering if Messrs. MacD and Raynor simply felt the need to name a few of their "signature" holes for commercial purposes.

George and Tom D.:
  
I was told by a course-side home owner that "an architect from Richmond has submitted a proposal to do a full restoration but it isn't clear how many holes management will decide to do".  At the moment, only 3 holes (Punchbowl, Eden and #16) are under construction.  The first one of us that gets ahold of either Robert Harris or the Greenbrier's historian should post for the benefit of others.

Craig Rokke:

The green fees are actually "complimentary" during the winter (Dec-Feb I think).  That's right - free.  I believe only the Bob Cupp-designed Meadows Course is open during that period, however.

The resort room/MAP fees are at their highest from 12/15-1/2 and aren't exactly a bargain the rest of the year, either.  IMO, you sure get your $$$$'s worth, though.

[George Bahto]

Here is some random information - in no particular order.

* I think the original routing of Old White is exactly where the holes are today.

* I have been talking with both Bob Conte and Bob Harris on and off for the past few months. In fact Harris called last week about my book.

* The architect doing the work at present is Lester George - yes, from VA. He just finished a redo at the Cavalier course (Banks) recently.

* When I first went there about 4 or 5 years ago I had not been doing any restorations (far from my mind at that time). I recommended Tom Doak, Gil Hanse and a couple others.

* I offered my services to the resort recently - even as a consultant/overseer or whatever -  with someone else getting the credit - that's how much I think of what could be done there - oh well - would have been a great project

* I think this would have been a terrific project to do as a total "step back in time" restoration and would have been in sharp contrast to what else is there, the JN course etc.  - isn't a Faz course there now too?

* Mike DeVries had been interviewed also - he called me - we might have collaborated

* I agree with Tom - I think the Greenbrier course of CB & SR was a better course than Old White

* Steve Wilson - you are right, there is nothing memorable about the present course - but I saw the old skeleton under there of what once was.  I still think, as I said on an earlier post, that if CB kept going back, it was more than a resort course - the course was once good and he was proud. I cannot imagine him going there with his buddies Findlay Douglas and Morgan O'Brien and wanted to be embarrassed because of the course (remember, this was Snead's home base - wasn't his 59 on Old White).

* I know nothing of O'Neil but certainly would like to find out more about him

* I want to make a complete drawing of the original courses but lack some material so far - although I have a line on something recently (not your stuff Wayne, but that will help) - what I have is just a basic layout they and I have had for years and a bunch of old articles and pictures that described the courses when built

* Chip: I found the road hople up in the corner of the property (remember I was armed with original descriptions and yardages) - I think everything is there - no hill for an Alps, so don't look for one. That alps was just "Alps bunkering" - no hill to play over. The Biarritz was under there

Cape was #14 (no diagonal drive over a hazard - hah) .... looks like the green was just hanging there next to something - 310-yds played from two different tee-boxes - Biarritz was #3 - Redan #8 - Punchbowl #9 - Alps #13 - #15 Eden - #16 Narrows with an alternate tee - the Short over water as #18 .... there was Plateau etc

Chip, all the signature holes were there. This was a pretty good course and deserves something special

* I should be talking with Bob Harris tomorrow to return his call

[Mike_Cirba]

Lester George is doing a lot of restoration and modernization work in the mid-Atlantic area, and has posted here in the past.

Perhaps he can personally update us on the Greenbrier??  

[George Bahto]

forgot something - a question:

don't Al Gore and Forest Gump sound alike?? ??

[ChipOat]

George Bahto:

Fazio has laid out a course for the new private club that is being marketed there.  Don't know how many homesites have to be sold before construction starts, though.

Although the yardage is "Short"-like on #18, the bunkering and green contouirs bear zero resemblance to the real thing.  Talk about flattening out..........

See you on Saturday - hope you're prepared to sign lots of autographs!

Chip

[SPDB*]

I know on the Winter Gathering thread, Lester George had, early on, expressed some interest in attending/speaking, drawing no response. He'd be an interesting person to have speak - perhaps he's still interested.

wish i could go.  

[Colin Sheehan]

I have a question for the golf historians. Does anyone know the original C.B. Macdonald 18 holes at The Old White before Raynor and any other edits took place. I'm talking about the original course in its first five years. Any info on yardage, par or bogey and hole names? Would love to know that.
Thanks,
Colin
 

[Sven Nilsen]

Colin:


Pretty sure I have all of that info.  Give me a few hours and I’ll get it posted.


Sven

[Bret Lawrence]

Colin,


There is a very early routing map of Greenbrier posted in the Compilation of Routing Maps thread.  A similar map was published in a 1916 history on White Sulphur Springs, so these are likely the original yardages and names.  Here is a link to the map. In order to see the names of the holes, you need to zoom in really closely.  The first and 18th holes aren’t named, but they are later referred to as First and Home. 


https://hdl.handle.net/2027/loc.ark:/13960/t79s21k5n?urlappend=%3Bseq=132


And here is a link to a later Olmsted map which includes the No. 3 course as well.  This is a clearer version to pick up the yardages and names on No. 1.


https://flic.kr/p/ZGkMEC


Bret

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's a 1914 map of all of the courses at the Greenbrier.  Below that is the best article I've seen describing the early course.  Doesn't give much information on the individual holes, but we know the course was noted as measuring 6,250 yard when first built.





Oct. 1915 Golf Illustrated -

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


I agree that many early references noted the course at 6,250, however the yardage guides listed the course at 6,205.  If you add the yardages on the maps above they equal 6,260.  The seventeenth hole appears to have been built to only 475 yards, according to your article above.  This would change the total from 6,260 to 6,205.


Here is a breakdown of the holes, names, yardages and women’s par for the 1922 US Women’s Amateur.  All of the yardages match the yardages in the 1914 map, except for Hole No. 17. It doesn’t appear that Raynor or Macdonald made any material changes to the course prior to the Women’s Amateur.

Brooklyn Daily Eagle., September 24, 1922:




Bret

[Sven Nilsen]

As you can see from the 1930 Scorecard, not much changed between the opening of the course and that date.  When CBM and Raynor came back in the early 20's, most of the changes (as briefly touched on in the article Bret posted) were pretty minor.






The difference between 475 (the noted playing distance) and 530 (the yardage on the maps) for the 17th makes one wonder if there was an alternate tee box that was used.  As far as I can tell the green was always in the same location.

[Colin Sheehan]

Sven and Bret,
Thank you very much for the helpful information! I'm very grateful.


Any chance you have a lead on similar Gibson Island information? I saw that Joe Bausch posted the Baltimore Sun's series on the golf courses of Maryland. I have the earliest yardages and pars and some of the templates can be deduced from that article and their appearance (and from the page on The Evangelist of Golf) but I've yet to find anything with potential official hole names.


Thank you.
-Colin

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