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Phil_the_Author

Courses by McCumber
« on: June 08, 2003, 10:54:13 PM »
I am wondering about the strengths and abilities of Mark McCumber as an architect. I know he has been involved in  course designing for a surprising number of years (over 25 I believe), but I never see any discussion of his courses and their merits, or his design philosophies on GCA.

As I have never played one of his courses, can anyone tell me anything about them?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ForkaB

Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2003, 11:13:39 PM »
I played his Ravines course 15 years ago and found it to be a solid test of golf.  Nothing spectacular, mind you, except that it is one of the few courses in Florida with significant changes in elevation.  Good mix of uphill and downhill holes.  Compactly enough routed to be probably walkable, even with the hills, in the wintertime--nobody but mad dogs and Englishmen walks Florida golf courses in the summertime........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BCrosby

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2003, 05:35:30 AM »
I think McCumber did Scales Creek, about 50 miles east of Atlanta. I've heard some good reports.

Anyone played it?

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2003, 05:48:08 AM »
I think McCumber is pretty good. I've played a couple of his courses. The first I think used to be called Summer Beach in Amelia Island Florida and now it's probably owned by the Ritz. It's a good course, not a great one but it's fun to play. The other one is around St Marys Georgia and I can't recall the name of it right now. Also a good one but not great but better than most of the new Florida courses I've played. As I said before though I preferred Davis Love's course around St Mary's to either of the McCumber ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BCrosby

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2003, 05:59:56 AM »
I concur about Summer Beach. I played it several times 5 or 6 years ago, but didn't know it was by McCumber. It is now owned by the Ritz.

A fun resort course that doesn't overuse water hazards.

Bob  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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DTaylor18

Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2003, 06:25:06 AM »
The course around St. Mary's, Georgia is Osprey Cove.  It's cetainly solid and probably as good as most of the courses in the area.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2003, 06:28:20 AM »
Summer Beach is now called the Golf Club of Amelia Island.  Played it once.  I am playing Osprey Cove at the end of the month.

I am not certain that he designed Ravines originally.  I know he has lived near Middleburg, but I think the course pre-dates his involvement in architecture.

Most of the work he's done that I've seen is around Jacksonville.  A good regional name and I haven't seen any bad courses from him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2003, 06:38:05 AM »
Ravines has been around since 1979, putting Mark at about 28 when it opened.  I'm going to look into it further because I seem to remember some confusion (on my part) over his involvement.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ForkaB

Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2003, 07:40:12 AM »
John

My recolllection is that McCumber & Associates is a family firm that was doing stuff even when Mark was fairly young.  I'm sure that when I was living in North Florida in the late 80's The Ravines was referred to as an original McCumber design.  Maybe his daddy or one of his brothers did most of the original work in 1979, or perhaps he wsa just a prodigy?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2003, 07:43:26 AM »
I played McCumber's TPC at Heron Bay in conjunction with the Honda Classic a couple of years ago. Very bland, unmemorable holes that included even more unmemorable greensites and flattish greens.  It's no surprise the TOUR moved the Honda elsewhere. The players, gallery and officials alike were having trouble staying awake there... :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Michael Whitaker

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2003, 10:28:05 AM »
Bob - Scales Creek is a really nice course on interesting property with lots of movement. The design presents quite a variety of holes, most of them extremely memorable. As I remember, it is very much a "lay-of-the-land" type course. And, at $40-something it is one the best buys around.

Why don't we schedule a Palmetto/Peach match at Scales Creek and discuss its merits?

Here is a look at the 4th hole, a 538yd par 5



This is the 13th, a 209yd par 3:


And, the 17th, a 165yd par3:


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

ChipRoyce

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2003, 10:47:46 AM »
If memory serves me correct, Mr. McCumber was consulting, if not lead architect for the TPC at Eagle Trace, Coral Springs, FL - former host of the Honda Classic.

It seems that tour pros, across the board, were very critical of this course - one of the reasons it was moved up to Palm Beach County. I remember walking the course the first year it was open - appreciated one or two holes for the strategic options (short par 4's?). The rest of the course seemed to be the worst of everything Florida has to offer ("Flat earth society")

C
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2003, 11:57:53 AM »
Chip,

See my reply #9 above. Like Scales Creek, TPC @ Heron Bay is a "lay of the land course." Totally flat land, that is...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve_L.

Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2003, 02:09:16 PM »
Eagle Trace is an Art Hills project.  McCumber's work IMO is generally ordinary - not bad, but not great.

The Ravines is on a breathtaking piece of property, very hilly (particularly for Florida) with a few holes bordering Black Creek.  The routing is awkward, many forced carries.  It's equal parts inspired and awkward, and has suffered from marginal maintenance.  I believe McCumber designed it, used to own it, and used to live there.  

Other McCumber courses include Osprey Cove (nice finishing holes on the marsh), GC of Amelia Island (haven't played), GC of South Hampton (another member of flat earth society).

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2003, 02:18:33 PM »
Steve:

How is "North Hampton", which is on the drive from I-95 to Amelia Island?  The address is Fernandina Beach, but I suspect it might really be Yulee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Forrest Richardson

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2003, 05:44:56 PM »
I've only played Ravines, and enjoyed it. I did some consulting on his work at Hilton Head: Hidden Cypress. It is very solid and sooooo much better than his client allowed him to do at the neighboring Oakatee (Sp?) Creek.

I can also report a recent golf outing with Mark and he is one terrific player. Our foursome took the daily prize...and I am honest in reporting that it had nothing — except one par — to do with yours truly.

Mark is also very thoughtful and, yes, a great family man.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Cirba

Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2003, 06:27:16 PM »
I've only played on Mark McCumber course, Knob Hill GC in central NJ, which was built over an old, discarded course by James Harrison.  

It's pretty awful, in terms of flow, routing, individual holes, and awkwardness of property utilization.  I'm sure he was bound by housing and wetlands constraints, but sheesh....it's one strange place for a round of golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve_L.

Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2003, 07:13:43 PM »
John,

North Hampton is a good Palmer course...  It's demanding, especially when the wind is blowing...  There are several terrific holes, but its tough...  A member at my club described it this way "...the only thing missing was razor wire and live machine gun fire..."

It's worth playing - and yes it's in Yulee...

New Fazio course supposed to begin construction across the street - "Amelia National"...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve_L.

Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2003, 07:14:56 PM »
Oh yeah.  Magnolia Point in Green Cove Springs, FL is another McCumber.  Good piece of property, awful routing, average golf course...  Nothing special...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A.G._Crockett

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2003, 08:13:58 PM »
I've played Osprey Cove in St. Mary's several times, and Scales Creek once.  I would rate both as better than just "solid."  They are excellent dollar values for daily fee courses, both relatively natural, and both very well-conditioned.  If they are representative of his work, his work is good, indeed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2003, 08:18:02 PM »
http://hiltonhead.delwebblive.com/core/SCHHgolf.asp

Make sure to scroll down to Hidden Cypress, for it is the jewell of his work there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2003, 08:25:28 PM »
I believe Mark McCumber is one of the few, if any, PGA Tour player-golf course architects to have received formal university education in Landscape Architecture. Not sure where?

Tyler Kearns
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Forrest Richardson

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2003, 08:51:30 PM »
Education: College: Ball State University
Degrees: BLA (1982); BS (1982)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jack_Marr

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2011, 07:17:31 AM »
Just bumping this up. Has McCumber done much since this thread? He isn't discussed much at all, it seems.
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John Marr(inan)

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Courses by McCumber
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2011, 09:47:31 AM »
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