Restoration architects

[John Bernhardt]

This is a thread that has come up before but I love to talk about the better restoration architects versus renovation or original work.

[Jim_H]

I'm sorry that there has been no response to this thread, because I have been waiting to see if I can learn something.  I would like to pose a similar--perhaps identical--question:  Who are the best individuals to help an established private club course (good, but not great) develop a long-term master plan to make the course better over the next few years?  Are these the well-known architects, or are there golf course master planners who would do a better job of consulting?  If architects, which ones for this kind of work?  How are these people compensated for a plan?  Is an architect needed when the actual work is done?  Any suggestions and/or names would be appreciated.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Bernhardt & Jim H,

It's a politically charged subject.

I would suggest, that if you have the time and interest, that you review the archives thoroughly.

I think you'll find all the answers you're looking for.

[Jeff Mingay]

Pat's right. This is a "politically charged" topic. I could easily create a list to answer the original question but feel it would be somewhat inappropriate. Sorry.

I'll put it this way though. Researching my forthcoming book on the subject has been relatively easy, because there are only a few architects in the business who've put in the time, effort, care, and concern to pull off some outstanding restorative-based work.

Coincidentally, these same modern architects share many qualities with the Golden Age greats. Indeed, the best restorative-based work I've been exposed to has been orchestrated (and in many cases carried out personally) by contemporary architects who are as bold and creative as their predeccesors, and who possess a classical understanding of the game of golf.

Contact me off-line and we can really delve into it  

[Mark_Fine]

I very much agree with Jeff.  If your club is looking for an architect, make sure it is someone who is not looking to make a name for themselves by leaving "their mark".  You want someone who understands the architecture of your club and the architect who designed it.  Furthermore, you need someone as Jeff says who is really going to take the time to research the design and personally get involved with the work.  You also need someone who can communicate to your members what it is that they recommend be restored (and why).  Good luck!
Mark

[TEPaul]

Jim H:

You deserve an answer.

When the others above said this is a politically charged question I suppose they mean because in some of the past threads on this subject a lot of contributors chimed in with questions like "What does restoraton mean exactly",etc and those threads sort of turned into a debate on that. But that aside, I can't really make out when you say 'to make our course better', you're talking about restoration generally.

But if so, and the politically charged thing aside, the architects I know of who do and have done some good restorations are:

Hanse & Co
Doak (Renaissance)
Ron Pritchard
Brian Silva
Ron Forse
Coore & Crenshaw (but they don't do it anymore)

Those are the ones I personally know the work of, so please don't anybody blame me for no mentioning those that I really don't know, who may be good too.

Some of the others I don't know the work of that well but have heard some good things about with restorations of one form or another would probably include,

Bobby Weed
David Esler

At my course a restoration master plan cost around 30K to develop and included a detailed hole by hole plan of text and hole drawings. Obviously the cost of a restoration could vary tremendously.

But if it's not restoration you're looking for and there's just something your club wants to improve about the course just try to determine what the problem is with the course (and with the members) and consult the kind of architect that seems to you would be one who does the type and style of work you're all looking for.

You should check the previous work of any architect you might interview and don't forget, all architects or any architect will not produce the same thing although a lot of clubs think they will if they just tell them what they want.

Good luck.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom lists some good names.  My best restoration story is the comment from the one architect who said to our superintendent as he was coming down the entrance drive to our club, "so who was the guy who designed this course"  :-/
Wrong guy - obviously didn't get the job!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Bernhardt,

I might take issue with one or more of TEPaul's selections, but I won't.
On second thought, yes I will.
TE lists a firm for restorations..... that doesn't do restorations
TE, I know you love these guys, but why list a firm that won't engage themselves in this type of work ?  
You're only confusing people and building false hopes.

I've also seen the work of one of TE's listed architects that completely deviated from the original work, taking the club further away from a restoration and the restoration process, thereby sending the signal that the golf course was open season to non-restorative changes conceived by both member and architect alike.

A vital component in the "process" is the directive given to the architect.

It's not usual that an architect is given marching orders to RESTORE the golf course, the way it was, either originally or to some target year.  

As important as the choice of determining the architect, are the marching orders provided by the club for the work.

But, that's just my opinion, TEPaul is most definitely wrong.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Pat thanks for showing restraint till the final line. lol TE Paul, thank you and i understand Coore does not do this anymore. I played some might good holes he did at Blaketree National though.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Jim H I am equally interested in the question you put forth. Who are the specialist is understanding what was there before and putting forth a long range plan to improve the course.

[TEPaul]

"TE lists a firm for restorations..... that doesn't do restorations
TE, I know you love these guys, but why list a firm that won't engage themselves in this type of work ?"

Pat:

Here's why!

A very short time ago they had a bit of unexpected down time. Sometimes with even a very high demand/low production company, schedules get bounced around for odd reasons and even those high demand companies can find themselves with some down time or gaps in their schedules. I asked them if they'd consider doing an interesting restoration and the answer was; "We'd consider it".

So the moral of that story is there's no harm in asking and no harm in menitoning them. If people never asked simply because they assumed something like "they'd never do it",  Easthampton G.C. would never have gotten built by Coore and Crenshaw!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Valid point, but you still have to be wrong, otherwise, it just wouldn't be right  

[nels]

Jim H.
I think a lot depends on who the original architect was.  For a specific answer to a specific course, Mike DeVries's pure restoration of the Meadow Club, Alister MacKenzie's first course in the U.S. might just be the prototype for a private club.  Shackelford wrote about the process in Golfdom a few months back, stressing how the restoration was sold to the membership, as well as the historical documentation that was used to assure a pure restoration.  DeVries has kept his ego in check and has deferred to MacKenzie in all instances, while putting in as much or more time than he might on an original design.  

gary nelson

[brad miller]

Gary, welcome hope all is well, say hi to Paul H. When I saw MD's work at Thanksgiving of 2001 it was just wonderful. What other holes, green complexes have been done?

[Jim_H]

Thank you for all the thoughts on restoration/renovation--especially to TEPaul for the names.  I was glad to see that we had overcome the political nature of the question.  For a while, I feared that this site was getting soft.
To be more specific about my club's issue--but without betraying any necessary confidentiality--the course is a 40+ year-old course--once in the top 100 and for several years the site of a PGA tournament.  It is now entirely for the members and serves that purpose well.  But, being a club of serious golfers, there is some question of whether we can make modifications to make the course better--not for any rating or tournament purpose, but just for the increased enjoyment of serious golfer members.  No one is looking for a "big name" for any ego reasons, this not a course that needs to be preserved for historical reasons beyond normal, and there is no pressure for action.  There is just a question of whether we can make a good, enjoyable course even better for our own use.  And we would like a "consultant" to develop a plan that could be implemented over a few years.
One specific question beyond what I have already posed is whether we need to look to a master planner/architect with specific knowledge of our somewhat unique soil conditions?  This is a Southwest course with sandy soil and somewhat difficult growing issues.  Do we need to focus only on people/firms with this expertise?  
Any different thoughts with this added information?  Thanks.