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Neil Regan

Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« on: May 31, 2005, 10:27:44 PM »
Some pictures from Hidden Creek.
Thanks again to Roger Hansen, Bill Coore, Jeff Riggs, Ian Dalziel, and all at Hidden Creek.
Thanks especially to Pat Mucci.

Sorry I don't have time to identify all the pictures.
I think the best are last.

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« Last Edit: June 02, 2005, 12:01:45 AM by Neil Regan »
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

wsmorrison

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2005, 10:32:18 PM »
Terrific photos, Neil.  You have some real skills with a camera.  Any chance we could use some photos of Flynn courses for the book?  Of course, that means you'll have to make a visit to the land of Flynn.  Hint, hint.  Nudge, nudge  ;)

PThomas

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2005, 10:50:12 PM »
Nice pics Neil...

and I couldn't go cause of a work thing... >:( :-[
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Neil Regan

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2005, 10:59:23 PM »
Wayne,

   I'd love that.
  Things are looking up here, so I think I'll be able to finally travel a bit.
  I think the only Flynn course I know well is Westchester.
  Other than Pocantico, what else is up here ?


 
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

James Bennett

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2005, 11:30:14 PM »
Great Pics.

Normally, I find black and white photo's to be too arty and pehaps a bit indulgent, ie why eliminate the colour when you can have it.  But, it seems to focus attention on the architecture, rather than the turf colour.  

They are a really neat set of hazards.  And the use of the simple rope to effectively manage player movement from tee to fairway doesn't seem to obtrusive either.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

George Pazin

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2005, 10:20:34 AM »
Wonderful photos, as always.

Geoff does a great job staying down through the ball - wish I could do that!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 10:21:07 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Scott_Burroughs

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2005, 10:53:51 AM »
More great stuff from our resident Lambrecht.

Watch out for Neil on the loose during late day sun hour!

Evan Fleisher

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2005, 02:07:53 PM »
Wow! Those B&W shots are stunning...love the look!

But my favorite pic is the one of our own "good doctor" hitting his lefty shot towards the clubhouse green...ball in flight and all...could go right onto a postcard or something!
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Mike Nuzzo

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2005, 02:28:15 PM »
What a fun round.
I was fortunate to be Neal's partner on team Righties (vs. Team Lefties).  So it's easy to tell what pictures are of me.
Very cool, even the one where I'm in the fairway bunker on three.
Great pictures.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2005, 02:59:07 PM »
Neil, Why post pictures of Hidden Creek? It's not supposed to be a very good golf course! ;)

Great shots of dramatically GREAT golf course! (that isn't flat and featureless either! Whever that notion came from is pure chicken fodder)

(Matt Ward seal of approval for liking or not liking this course not needed. Also, if any one needed to guide themselves around this course with a yardage book should just stick to the courses filled with containment mounding and flat greens that suit them)

Hidden Creek--much maligned-but as fun of a golf course as you'll see!

Michael Moore

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2005, 03:49:41 PM »
Also, if any one needed to guide themselves around this course with a yardage book should just stick to the courses filled with containment mounding and flat greens that suit them.

Tommy -

As a producer and consumer of yardage books, I feel compelled to rise to their defense here.

Hidden Creek features bunkers that are directly in the line of play, presumably to foster a greater variety of strategic decisions for the golfer. Doesn't a good yardage book enhance this decision-making process?

Hitting into a bunker because you haad no way of determining how far away it was hardly seems like strategy. As Edward Tufte writes in Visual Explanations

"Displays of evidence implicitly but powerfully define the scope of the relevant, as presented data are selected from a larger pool of material . . . That selection of data . . . can make all the difference, determining the scope of the evidence and thereby setting the analytic agenda that leads to a particular decision."

In any event I fail to see the connection between yardage books, containment mounding, and flat greens.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 03:50:43 PM by Michael Moore »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

mike_malone

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2005, 03:55:44 PM »
 Tommy,

   I think I can see where you are coming from. Many of us in the N.Y / Philly are used to very good golf courses. When a new kid comes onto the block, it is tough competition. Maybe you west coast guys don't have that kind of competition.

AKA Mayday

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2005, 04:59:28 PM »
Michael,
My point is more that if one plays the course without the yardage book or even help from a caddie in terms of distances to the hole, the architecture itself becomes more interesting, even more thought provoking in terms of deceptions and nuances. It also makes the game quicker and faster to play.

C&C Hanse and Doak are all great at doing this--making things look farther and closer then they appear.  Certainly at Hidden Creek this happens a lot. I mistakingly mumbled to the caddie or Jeff Lewis or Uncle George, "What's the distance here?" and it was surely a slip of the tongue, simply because I hadn't asked for a yardage all day, nor the rest of the day after that nor since.  I like being tricked and fooled when it comes to this, because it has also made me better at looking at something and being able to tell what the yardage actually is. (In the long run)

This is where courses like Hidden Creek both get and give a bad vibe. People don't like it when they get fooled or have a caddie give them a distance they felt was a bad information. Visually, as Neil's excellent pictures will attest--Hidden Creek is an art form. As a enjoyable challenging golf course, I think it also fits that bill quite effectively. I think that was the point of my post of a week or so ago. That many compare the course to how they played it, and frankly frustration isn't a fun thing--but if I think this is where people have to understand that when something seems so simple, yet it can creep up on them bite them where it most hurts, and then suddenly the course gets a tongue lashing of vile and dispute from the victims. Such as the narrow opinions of some of my friends in the friendly and brotherly confines of Philadelphia! :)

(My new nickname for Mayday is "Cream Cheese!") ;D

And Mayday, just when was the last time you ventured West?!?!?!

« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 05:19:17 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2005, 09:50:32 PM »
Tommy Naccarato,

The first time I played Hidden Creek I was totally fooled by the bunker on # 14.

From where the pin was located, it looked like the back bunker was actually a fronting bunker.  As I walked to the green I was smiling that the deception had succeeded so well.

I think yardage books eliminate playing by feel, which encompasses alot of off shots.

It used to be that playinig by feel, estimating the yardage was one of the challenges presented by a golf course.   But, since Gene Andrews, golf by the numbers is the prevalent method of play.

Neil,

Thanks for the pictures.

Did you have to tarnish them by including a LEFTY ?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 09:52:19 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2005, 09:56:58 PM »
Pat

 :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P


You have to get out to Fenway. I have never seen it better then it was today.  I played with another lefty.  You might want to find some righty to join you.  :P

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2005, 10:12:38 PM »
Geoff,

The fellow who was the primary force behind and supervised the restoration project has invited me to play with him.

He's going to be playing in the Anderson at Winged Foot and we're going to try to get to Fenway around that time.

I haven't played there in years but have heard nothing but rave reviews about the golf course.

Likewise, you should get to Mt Ridge, which is hosting the State Amateur next week.  It's a wonderful golf course that many have never heard of.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2005, 10:22:19 PM »
Righty

Not to thread jack but- I played Mt Ridge last June with Ned Steiner and another member who also plays in the Anderson. We had a wonderful day.  Its a really nice course but not in Fenway's league IMHO.  Fenway was firm and fast and will test every aspect of your game. My lefty friend and I commented today on the 18th fairway that we wish we had time to go right over to #1 again.

Its a good thing Steve Frankel is a righty.  He'll probably play with you. After all he did put up with Ran for an entire afternoon  ;D
« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 10:42:15 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

Neil Regan

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2005, 12:07:48 AM »
Neil,

Thanks for the pictures.

Did you have to tarnish them by including a LEFTY ?




Lefty ? We can change that.
 

Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Kevin_Reilly

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2005, 01:08:49 AM »
Neil,

Thanks for the pictures.

Did you have to tarnish them by including a LEFTY ?




Lefty ? We can change that.
 



That was brilliant.  :D
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

James Bennett

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2005, 03:17:32 AM »

Neil,

Thanks for the pictures.

Did you have to tarnish them by including a LEFTY ?

Pat  whenever I take a practice swing looking into a mirror, I see this awkward, ugly, left hander swinging.  Just like one of those side-show mirrors that present a fat/thin variation on the truth.   :D

I think from my Latin days that left was sinistra (sinister) whilst right was dexstra (dextrous).  You can't trust a lefty! I think Hockey has it right (no pun intended) - ever seen a left-handed hockey stick? ;D
« Last Edit: June 02, 2005, 03:18:53 AM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

wsmorrison

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2005, 07:32:41 AM »
"Wayne,

  I'd love that.
  Things are looking up here, so I think I'll be able to finally travel a bit.
  I think the only Flynn course I know well is Westchester.
  Other than Pocantico, what else is up here ?"

Neil,
I am glad to hear things are taking a turn for the better.  Westchester was built by Flynn and there's talk that Flynn did some remodeling.  I'll be going up in a few weeks to have a look around.  Pocantico should photograph nicely...that is if you're taking the photographs.  I'll have to get permission for that and see if you can make it.

When circumstances allow, we'll have to do the grand tour down here in the land of Flynn.  Honestly, your photos would be a great help and asset to the book project.  
« Last Edit: June 02, 2005, 07:32:59 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Willie_Dow

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2005, 07:53:07 AM »
Wayne

These great pictures of bunkers are almost on a par with those of "The Brian Morgan Collection".

We play next Thursday with Lindsay !

Willie

wsmorrison

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2005, 07:56:44 AM »
Looking forward to it, Bill.  Let's see Neil update the Morgan Collection.  A side by side would be interesting!

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2005, 09:01:35 AM »
Neil, Why post pictures of Hidden Creek? It's not supposed to be a very good golf course! ;)


Hidden Creek--much maligned-but as fun of a golf course as you'll see!

Tommy - I know you like to expound on discussions from time to time but these two statements are simply not true and only throw gasoline on a spark when no fire was ever there to begin with.

The worst things I've seen mentioned about Hidden Creek were that the course has in its neighborhood some truly outstanding ones that some people prefer from an architectural or playing perspective.  The other criticism was that its a super course but the hazards do not threaten score on any individual shot such that huge variations in score could result.

No one to a man has said they didn't like the course or thought it anything less than excellent. The knee jerk reaction to anything less then HC being on par with Pine Valley, Garden City, Friars Head or the like is tiresome and frankly more hurtful then someones honest opinion.

My opinion has changed upward with each of four separate rounds played and if I lived closer or happened to be a fan of the Atlantic City scene I would join in a heartbeat. However, it doesn't change my opinion that I prefer Fenway as one example of a course not on Golf's Top 100 in the US. So what. As others have said that takes nothing away from Hidden Creek.

Your friend

Lefty

Steve Lapper

Re:Hidden Creek pictures, thanks again Pat
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2005, 09:33:29 AM »
Pat & Geoff,

   Interesting that you both should mention Fenway and Mtn. Ridge in the same breath!!

   Are they not to their original architects (and subsequent restorers) the slightly junior (yet more sporty and fun) versions/iterations of their nearby larger ,and more formidable cousins (WF or QR and Plainfield)?

   Perhaps we can take this to another thread, but I've long maintained that they present most excellent examples of competitive comparisons that have similar historys.

S
« Last Edit: June 02, 2005, 09:36:39 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

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