Costs of Scotland and Ireland

[Don Dinkmeyer]

I just returned from Ireland - prior two years the trips were in August.

At no time in the past three years has anyone i've talked with described the golf economy as increasing -- to the contrary. The Euro's rise has dissuaded some from travel.

I was able to get on virtually anywhere, at any time - within their non-member limits. Apparently, May and August are the big golf months for some courses (this is the southwest), but i still do not understand that...

[Bob_Huntley]

What with the hassle of air travel to just about anywhere, together with the increased cost of golf in the UK owing to the dollar/pound rate of exchange and the cost of things British, I have a question.

Why not engage the slogan, 'Buy American.' Are there many among us, who are not within a days automobile drive of a desirable golfing experience?

Bob

[Joel_Stewart]

'Buy American.' Are there many among us, who are not within a days automobile drive of a desirable golfing experience?

Bob:  Name 10!

Actually I drove to Bandon a few weeks ago from San Francisco and it was 9 hours.  I believe its 5 from Portland.  I believe the costs have been discussed here before but Bandon is almost as expensive as Pebble Beach when you count the lodging, food and caddies.  

[ForkaB]

David Ricardo must be rolling over in his grave.....

[Bob_Huntley]

Rich,

David never had to worry about expenses and to my knowledge, did not play golf. He also thought that the world in general was going to hell in a handbag.

Wot's he got to do with price of  a Prov1?

Bob

[Geoffrey Childs]

Why not engage the slogan, 'Buy American.' Are there many among us, who are not within a days automobile drive of a desirable golfing experience?

Bob

Bob- normally I would agree with you on this one.  Just this year I drove 6 hrs to Virgina to play one day and Maryland the next.  Next week I travel up to Rhode Island and a few additional longist trips by car are in the works.

However,  I have found that the people in Scotland and Ireland have been so nice to me on my various trips. The cultural gains I've made from those experiences have equaled the golfing ones. I have not a bad word to say about anything to do with a UK or Ireland trip.

My last trip to Scotland was in 2001 so my cost estimates may have been off somewhat.  Part of my argument was that for a New Yorker its just easier to get to the UK or Ireland then it is to Bandon Dunes.  The SF area is obviously easier for travel and in fact my Bandon trip had as its first leg our match at Pasatiempo followed by a long 9 hour drive up the coast with Mike Cirba and George Bahto as company.

[David Sneddon]

'Buy American.' Are there many among us, who are not within a days automobile drive of a desirable golfing experience?

Bob:  Name 10!

Actually I drove to Bandon a few weeks ago from San Francisco and it was 9 hours.  I believe its 5 from Portland.  I believe the costs have been discussed here before but Bandon is almost as expensive as Pebble Beach when you count the lodging, food and caddies.  

I'm going to Bandon in October. Golf for 4 days and accomodation will run around $1400USD, plus meals and caddies.

On a golf per day basis, it is more expensive than Scotland.

[James Bennett]

Mr Bennett,

Your 450 miles of not much includes:

Barwon Heads, Port Fairy.  The Great Ocean Road, some of the best farming land in the country and the Hampden Football League.  Wash your mouth out...


Sean Walsh

I've just been to the dentist.  He washed my mouth out. .  The farming land is great, if you take the scenic coastal route.  Otherwise, there is quite a bit of desert.

Also, who/what is the Hampden Football League?

Otherwise, I agree.  There are some lovely ways to travel between Melbourne and Adelaide, if you take the long way.  The Bellarine Peninsula (13th Beach, Dunes, Barwon Heads etc), Port Fairy, the Great Ocean Road (which IMHO is superior to the drive from Monterey down to LA), Millicent, the Coonawarra (for those not in the know, read world-renowned Bordeuax equivalent cabernet sauvignon).  Lake Albert is also getting good reviews as a low cost course (no bunkers, I think). It would take a few, lovely days to do this.  I plan to do it soon, but when?

My reference was to the Dukes Highway 8 hour dash between adelaide and melbourne.  Yes, there is Horsham about half-way, and a lovely set of par 3's at Bordertown (great greens).  Otherwise, there is the grampians (complete with windmills these days) and the Ballarat by-pass.

[Philip Gawith]

Jonathan - the FX markets are a well know mug's game and the truth is that no one has a clue what the French Euro vote will mean for the Dollar/Euro rate. Depends whether you are talking short term or long term, and depends how everyone responds - particularly French politicians, the European Commission and the European Central Bank.

And, of course, since exchange rates have two elements to their strength, you also have to take an independent view on the likely trajectory of the dollar when trying to work out what will happen to the Euro or Pound.

What makes currencies difficult to read at present is that there appear to powerful arguments for most of the main currencies - Dollar, Yen, Euro - to weaken, but they obviously can't all do this at once.

Assuming some logic in the process - and FX markets can divert from logic for long periods ! - my money would be on this whole process triggered by France's No vote slowly weakening the Euro - because Europe's biggest problem at present is slow growth, and the strong Euro is part of the problem.

Rich: re  the price of a round on the Old Course, it is worth mentioning that the price is half what you quote if the round is played in winter. That means playing off matts when on the fairway, but that is less of an issue than it may sound. I think I only used it about ten times in the round.

[Jack_Marr]

The british pound usually follows the dollar - that's why traders generally stay away from the pound. They can just buy or sell the much more liquid dollar.

Anyway, I'm recently back from a very cheap trip to New York on the back of the weak dollar. Ole.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Whatever the exchange rates, the golf clubs in the UK have decided what they are worth, not only in terms of the currently favourable rate of the £ Sterling but also in the balancing of income (members' subscriptions vs greenfees).  There are still lots of real bargains to be found, and I am very hapy to direct those visitors who are on a serious budget to some of those bargains.  No, they will not be Wentworth or Royal Troon, but they will be Southerness or Southerndown, Seaton Carew or Seascale.  They don't all have to start with an S.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Rich you are far to rational even in your newfound mature state to compare anything to the Lodge except possibly Gleneagles. Skibo is another matter but frankly my rooms at Casa Palmera are far superior to one i had at skibo for much less We went through this discussion last year after the ryder cup. I find the UK to be out of control cost wise in general and even more so golfwise. It is much more than just the exchange rate. Yes market forces will ultimately win out but you are hearing people say enough. The next few years should talk to them. I do agree the top 10 or so will be able to get away with whatever just like the courses you mentioned. That does not make it right nor does it increase ones desire to be there. I am offended by the attitude at Turnberry that we aka Americans are just mullets waiting to be had. i love travel and golf in the UK and Europe and will continue to come as long as I can afford it but will not act as if it is ok and not voice objections to the practices.

[ForkaB]

JB

As an attorney, you should know that I was just responding to counsellor Corsby's outrageous statement.

Next time you get over, try out the Old Course hotel.  Ugly as it is from the outside, once you get inside it is as good as anything I have seen at Pebble Beach, and the views over the Road Hole to the town and the sea are hard to beat, even in the suburbs of Carmel....

Agree with you about Turnberry.  It was underservedly pretentious when I first stayed there in 1978 and through numerous changes of ownership and orders of magnitude of increases in cost, it remains so.

Also, as you know, Skibo is not about the rooms, or the food or the golf or even Alan Grant.  It is about trying to pretend you are Andrew Carnegie......

[Jonathan Cummings]

Actually the costs of the Euro and Pound have been falling since the French and Dutch votes.  It's already about 6% cheaper to go to Ireland/Scotland than it was a month ago (assuming you could lock in and pay for the trip today).

In Sept I'm taking a group to the nw of Ireland to play some of the "second tier" courses (Carne, Portnoo, Rosapenna, Portsalon, Ballyliffin and Causeway courses).  Many of these prices were shockers - upwards to $100 a round!  Play for a day at Rosapenna - $150.  Portrush (Valley course only) and Portstewart are both $160-180.  For Christ sake, it was only a short number of years ago you could play most of these courses for the change in your pocket!

The money is not an issue to me personally, I go often because I enjoy the golf and people of Ireland/Scotland.  But they have to, to some degree, be pricing themselves out of the market.

JC

[Robert Thompson]

There has been a lot of talk in the Irish media about whether the clubs have inflated their prices to a point where it is hurting tourism.
While you can't truly argue with the way they run their own clubs, the reality is most are covering almost all their costs through foreign green fees. This has also allowed them to keep their membership fees disproportionately low. If US and Canadians stop coming (and they have slowed in the last couple of years), some of these policies will surely have to be reevaluated.

[Keith Durrant]

I played Lundin and Dunbar last week for GBP42 each, or $75 a round. Fair value (in comparison to the US) for what are still championship courses, which are used for Open Qualifying. Tremendous views to boot !

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Rich, I did not factor Allen Grant in at Skibo for that is worth the cost of accomodation alone. The AC experience is also to be noted. lol. Sean, I do not find our hotel and food costs out of control except in select markets like NY, SF and Washington DC. That actually gets to the guts of my complaints. I have always felt it was fair for the best of the UK courses to charge a premium for they are in the best on earth club. However, for years the hotels, food, 2nd and 3rd tier clubs were reasonable and in line with western costs for the most part. It seems to be changing the last 3 years and is in my opinion now out of control. I feel everything in the UK in general terms is close to twice what a simlilar cost would be in the US. I will still come for I love it so much. The trips will be better planned and the attitude of costs do not matter is a thing of the past. The clubs in Ireland really do need to get a grip. It seems we are paying for the entire years cost to run the club and for roads to them which have not been built yet. lol

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tiger - I agree with your post.  

I'm viewing NZ, Aus and Taz as somewhat "the next frontier".  I wonder how long before the costs of these places explode....

JC

[Tim_Weiman]

Robert Thompson,

I haven't been to Ireland for about a year now, but you're right: for a while folks in the Irish media have raised concerns about increasing green fees at prominent Irish golf clubs.

But, I don't see green fee (and local membership) policies changing significantly anytime soon.

Restrictions on the amount of time devoted to green fees - as opposed to "members' time" - suggest that the prominent clubs are no where near maximizing income.......and that might not even be their goal. Thus, major changes aren't needed, even with the current down turn in American visitors.

At Ballybunion, there has been both an effort to temper green fee prices AND increase "members' time". The Old Course fees for 2005 are 135 euro; Saturdays in July 11 thru August 31 are entirely for members time.

[Jack_Marr]

Prices have improved over here recently. There are some great deals offered to get the Irish people coming back to the courses to replaces some foreign visitors who are staying away for a number of reasons.

By the way, the Irish government has been in contact with other nations for over 25 years asking that we not be termed the British Isles in maps and official correspondence. All in vain.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jonathan, I need to travel to the land of Oz as well as the home of the those lovely lasses from Australia. I might miss seeing the R&A next year but great golf and beautiful scenery has value as well.

[Jack_Marr]

Jack

I don't want to cause you heartache, but Ireland is part of the British Isles.  It is a geographic term, not a political one.  Is there another name for this group of islands?

Ciao

Sean

Hi Sean

It is a geographical term given to us by someone else. We don't call ourselves the British Isles and our government has has taken diplomatic steps to see that we aren't by other countries. Now, many countries and orgainizations don't, but some still do.

Zimbabwe is not called Rhodesia etc.

Anyway, I'm just trying to clear things up. I just think it's a very common mistake. It's not out of any dislike of any nation or anything like that.

Jack

[Jack_Marr]

Hi Sean

The U.K. is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Maybe the Channel Islands are part of the UK but not Britain - I'm not sure.

Northern Ireland comprises six counties of the nine counties of Ulster.

It's just that the use of the term British Isles is confusing. I have met several British people that actually  think Ireland is part of Britain. In fact, the BBC did a programme on the Greatest Britons of all time, which included several Irish people, including Michael Collins!

Jack

[Andy Levett]

'The Isles' - no British - is the title of a high-profile recent (90s) history of GB & I by Norman Davies. He writes at some length justifying the title - he thinks it's the most politically neutral way to describe the geographical area covered by his book  that will fit on the cover. Trouble is, it means nothing out of context. (Ever hear anyone say: 'I live in The Isles?')

GB & I works for me but a proud Ulsterman may be less keen as Great Britain  refers only to the big island and most of the little ones. UK is short for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so maybe UK & I is correct - but you don't see that very often either.

Getting back to the topic, Muirfield is reacting to the fall in overseas visitors by introducing (gasp) winter rates, (double gasp) a website and (triple gasp) online booking. http://www.muirfield.org.uk/
Whatever next - GPS at Dornoch?  

Another newish website is The Addington's. http://www.addingtongolf.com
One  nugget on the site is that overseas membership is a whole £260 per annum for a GCA favourite within 15 miles of central London. I've never played there so if anyone does join don't forget to invite me.

[Keith Durrant]

Sean/Jack

Channel Islands are not part of the UK !

http://www.answers.com/topic/crown-dependency

http://www3.gov.gg/ccm/navigation/about-guernsey/history/

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