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Michael Moore

  • Total Karma: 0
As I gaze upon the Hidden Creek threads, I dare say that some of our differences are as old as Ancient philosophy.

It seems that some here are Platonic - their knowledge of golf courses is based on the inward contemplation of an ideal course that does not exist in the world, but rather sheds light on them.

Others are like Aristotle - seeking to gain golf course knowledge exclusively from real world observations leading to a comparative taxonomy.

That's all.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

cary lichtenstein

  • Total Karma: 0
Too much rain in Portland?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Rain or stimulants?  Are you getting those two mixed up, Cary? ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Michael Moore,

I think you're correct, but, I'd add that some combine the two.

Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 0
Platonic and Aristotelian can't be merged or synthesized (in Hegel's sense). That's a category confusion.

I've never dared apply such terms to course design but appreciate the effort. While we're at it:

-Mike Strantz: Nietzsche

-Pete Dye: Kierkegaard (Fear & Trembling and Sickness Unto Death)

-Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw: Kant (aesthetic sublime, pristine categories of the natural mind)

-Robert Muir Graves: R.D. Laing

-Robert Trent Jones Sr.: Ayn Rand (modernist anti-classicism of "The Fountainhead")


Michael Moore

  • Total Karma: 0
Brad -

I would not apply these terms to course design, just to those who seek knowledge about golf courses.


Cary -

Without exaggeration, I can say that it has been cold and rainy for FIVE WEEKS here.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 0
well then, Matt Watt is Nietzschean
 

Andy Doyle

I hope to God everyone here has a platonic relationship with golf courses.

AD

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 0
Well, Tom Doak has perviously been identified as some kind of Howard Roark objectivist in the Ayn Rand mode.

I actually thought of Mike Strantz in the existentialist sense that it is what it is and exists for its own merits at the moment, but that is probably not correct.  It needs more thought I guess, so I'm out of that circle jerk mental masturbation...

But, my golf game? ... now that is Kafkaesque I think.  My men's club round today was an exercise in futility, angst, dread, and dispair.   :-[ ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 2
After a morning of mindless power washing my deck I need this academic (?) ALBEIT SILLY exercize.

Pete Dye's PGA West:  Dostoyevsky's  CRIME AND PUNISHMENT

Mike Strantz:  Plato--The idea of beauty is more lasting than beauty in form.

Early Nicklaus:  Bach fugues:  to complicated to play by amateurs.

Coore and Crenshaw:  Beethoven's ODE TO JOY from the Ninth  Symphony.

RTJ sr.:  Architecture's equivalent to John of the Cross's DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL.

Here comes my wife: The Kingdom of Oz-- Wicked witch of the west. ;D ;D ???  Back to the deck. :'(
« Last Edit: May 27, 2005, 12:56:10 PM by tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Michael Moore

  • Total Karma: 0
Tommy -

I stripped my deck six days ago and have been waiting ever since to stain it.

The idea of this thread was not to compare architects to philosophers (we've already had SILLY threads comparing architects to football teams and regional cuisines) but rather to try to explain and help understand the reasons why some people think that Galloway National is important to understanding Hidden Creek and others do not.

Brad Klein derailed us . . .
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Dan_Callahan

  • Total Karma: 0
Michael,

I would add a third school to your grouping. I think there are a few, albeit not many, forgiving souls who look at courses from the point of view of the American pragmatist. Rather than holding up an idealized vision of architecture in its perfect form, they look at whether a design makes best use of the land provided. One man's Platonic form could include 18 seaside holes. Which makes all inland tracts less than fully realized.

A pragmatist, on the other hand, would be able to factor into the equation the quality of the location when assessing the success (or failure) of the architecture. While that might not change the overall opinion of the course (one might simply have a strong preference for seaside links), it does give some measure of credit to the imagination and skill of the architect.

David Kelly

  • Total Karma: 1
Michael,

I think often, especially in the long drawn out threads, most people revert to a Sophistic approach to arguing about golf courses.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 2
Michael,  sorry.  I understood the intent of the thread.  I just couldn't resist.  If you have just finished power washing you unserstand. For twenty hours I have made intimate love to green wood in the mountains of Virginia.  I'll see if I can add something.

Plato's ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE has run around in my litle head since I first read it as a freshman in colege in 1964.  if dancing shadows on a wall in a cave is your only reality then the bright light of the outside world shatters your world. From CB MacDonald to Pete Dye and Tom Doak architects have studied the storied courses of Great Britain and Ireland.  Out of the cave each has uncovered a different idea of the ethereal.  The form varies according to these two very different approaches of expressing that reality.  CB and Seth Raynor took the idea of the redan but in very Aristotelean ways reproduced it when the terrain called for it.  The idea of the redan is timeless the form is not.  

Mike Strantz and Pete Dye take the idea and in the interior world or their minds reshape it until it is almost unrecognizable. I have always thought the free form of
expression as superior to the scientific cookie cutter approach of early Nicklaus or RTJ.

If I were to try and put architects into two different philosophical approaches I would do it this way:

Platonic:  Pete Dye,  Mike Strantz,  Coore and Crenshaw, Mike DeVries, Steve Smyers,  Alister MacKenzie.

Aristotelean:  Donald Ross,  Seth Raynor,  Jack Nicklaus, Hurdzan and Frye  (though they probably would think they are Platonic),   Rees Jones, RTJ.

There is my endeavor--too bad it is cow dung.

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
I am not well read enough to classify people, except to say that I think Tommy Williamsen has put everyone above with the others who work the same way.

I think I would belong to his "Platonic" group of architects ... yet as far as ranking golf courses is concerned, the Platonic approach sounds like the GOLF DIGEST approach to me, and I'm more from the GOLF Magazine school.

So maybe I'm just a pragmatist.