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JNC Lyon

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CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« on: May 17, 2005, 09:50:59 PM »
There has been no talk of the work at these courses, where one is already completed, and one is in planning.

CC of Rochester has been recently restored by Gil Hanse, and it opened newly for play this spring. Having played the full course twice, I was suitably impressed. My idea of the course was always a decent track with wild greens, but with bunkers in serious disrepair. The real drawback were the RTJ replacement holes at 5-7. However, Hanse cleaned up the bunker work there, making each green wide open to the ground game, though these three greens are more elevated than most at the course. One thing I have noticed is deception plays a large key in the challenge, and the vicious greens ensure that a player will walk off 18 thinking he could have been 5-10 shots lower. A good example is the 9th, a 425-yard par four from the whites. One of my playing partners had seemingly beaten the hole into submission, with  a solid drive leaving a short iron to the green. However, the bunker which comes out to greet the golfer short of the green makes the green seem much closer than in reality. My playing partner left his approach well short of the green, and could not get down in two. Meanwhile, remembering earlier observations and being a very short hitter, I hit Driver-3 Wood some 50 yards short in two. Refusing to be fooled, my firm pitch settled some five feet away, and the putt ensured a victory. The newly restored bunker, causing the deception, helped some local knowledge prevail. At least for me, this is agreat inprovement.

   I had also played Monroe Golf Club recently and was suitably impressed. After a slow start to the course, the bunkering and greens are quite bold, especially 4, 7, 17, and 18, the latter including an eight foot wide trough running diagonally across the green, which almost literally sits on the clubhouse porch. The course is rendered somewhat defenseless against long driving, as my 16 year old playing companion shot a remarkable 67(!). I was also excited to find that Gil Hanse would be doing extensive restoration, though not without some resistance from aged members, who say the awful pine trees between 11 and 12 were always there, etc. etc.

   Sincce these two outstanding courses are "hidden in Rochester, they get little exposure here. I should hope to get photos of both courses to further elaborate on my points.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

blasbe1

Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2005, 10:41:59 PM »
My sister-in-law in Rochester is expecting a new addition to the Family in a couple of weeks . . . I will be making a couple of trips that way this Summer and will check out CC of R, and while it was on my list I'm more excited to play it given the work, I only wish I had played it before.

BTW, we were up there in Feb. and CC of R beats all clubs I've ever visited in terms of non-golf facilities . . . they've got a skating rink in Winter, viewed by a tresspasing drive through  ;)


TEPaul

Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2005, 04:15:37 AM »
I've never seen Rochester C.C. or Monroe but a few years ago someone running the proposed restoration at Rochester C.C called me (I'm from a Phialdelphia Ross course) to talk about our project and who might be a good selection of architects to interview for their restoration project.

One thing I believe I remember is during the course of our conversation about their proposed restoration the fellow mentioned that Rochester C.C. has always been considered a pretty short Ross course and that they actually wanted to maintain that fact and perhaps even high-light it. I must say I'd never heard that one before!  ;)

I don't know Monroe at all but I spoke to Gil about it the other day and he said in his opinion it's one of the best Ross courses he's ever seen.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2005, 08:50:01 AM »
In my opinion, Rochester NY may have, per capita, the best concentration of golf courses of any city in the US.

The key word is 'per capita'.  Obviously, Philly, NY, and Boston have more, but for a city of Rochester's size, it can't be beat.

I also like the way they deal with winter up there.  Oak Hill, for example, has a bowling league that take place on their own lanes in or near the clubhouse.

They have Wegmans (the world's best supermarket) and great golf - if only there were more jobs up there!  (I have 2 brothers in Rochester, and would have liked to live closer, but the job market is pretty darn tight in Western NY these days).

blasbe1

Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2005, 08:56:37 AM »
Dan,

Based on the cost of housing (cheap, bordering on free) and depending upon where you're coming from, you may not need to work.  

Rochester is still a very much depressed city economically and if the Winters don't bother you go for it, or work remotely.

JKB  

 

John Foley

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2005, 09:16:08 AM »
Guys,

A couple points:

-The quality of private golf in Rochester is fantastic. Oak Hill, Monroe, CCR, Irondequoit, Brook-Lea, Stafford, Midvale, Ontario & Cobblestone are all fantastic.

-The quality of affordable public golf is tremendous. Places like Bristol Harbour (RTJ very early Rees), Ravenwood (Robin Nelson) & Greystone (Craig Schriener) are true hidden gems. Drop any of them in a major population center and it would be very tough to get a tee-time. A new one has just opened Mill Creek by Ray Hearn & Paul Albanese has gotten alot of good press, though I've yet to see it Another new course The Belfry (by Dave Thomas from England) should open up shortly, but from the looks of it I'll hold off on any positives.

Given the climate that from mid-Nov thru April is sucks (though you do get some luck and can play of the snow does not fall) you loose a little, but you gain so much in other areas.

I also don't think the economy is as down as it's made out to be. The big employers Kodak, Xerox & Bausch & Lomb are all pretty stable, though after some years of turmoil.

BTW - Someone should check the recent rankings of Public schools. This area did tremendous. Great Schools, little to no traffic, fantastic golf, housing costs that are incredibly affordable. Yeah - I think I'll stay :)

Rochester gets  a little bit of a bad rap in the press, but it's a great place to raise a family & play some golf!!.

As Dan said also, it doesn't hurt that we have the best supermarkets in the world. If you've never been to a Wegmans, you don't know what your missing!
Integrity in the moment of choice

Dan Herrmann

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2005, 09:25:12 AM »
If only Rochester could get their traffic signals computerized.  They're still the old timed clunkers that cause you to lose a lot of gas at a standstill.  

And you're right about the schools - my nephews/nieces go to Brighton or Pittsford schools, and belive me, they're a thousand times better than what I went through in metro Buffalo.

Anyway - back to golf - I've also found the clubs in Rochester to be exceptionally friendly.  Laura and I stopped in at the Oak Hill pro shop the day after Christmas a couple of years ago to pick up some PGA swag, and the staff was incredibly friendly.  Even Mr. Harmon stopped by to say 'hi'.

Actually speaks broadly to the residents of the Rochester area - in a very good way.

Nice contrast to a lot of those "CCFAD" places where you're sometimes made to feel like a schmuck by a snooty staff.

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2005, 09:41:19 AM »
I've always admired the college RIT for their requirement of co-oping (I co-oped at VT).

The only course I've played in Rochester is the muni Genesee Valley, where I was fitted for clubs by Master Pro Jack Tindale in 1997.

Scott Witter

Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2005, 10:17:55 AM »
We are preparing drawings for a complete bunker overall at another private track in Rochester built in 1929, Ridgemont CC.  Though the site isn't as strong as say CCR or Oakhill, it has some solid character and given the timeframe of original design, I have chosen to redesign the muni-looking bunkers into more of a Ross character or style dare I say.

Inorder to keenly refresh my mind regarding quality design and bunkering, I spent yesterday at CCR studing it, them, from top to bottom and it was in 1895 and is now in 2005, another quality effort from Ross and now Hanse, except of course the rework from RTJ, holes 5-7, very unfortunate.  Gil completed a  Master Plan a year or so ago and the bunkers were done last fall along with several tees and some much needed drainage work.

I took many photos of holes and of course bunkers and would love to post them, but I have never attempted this feat..any help is appreciated.

Yes, the course is short, but what it may lack in length, so what... it makes up for, now at least, in the return of cross and diagonal bunkers and some really great green sites/surfaces.  Aside from the strength of the fundamental bunkering Gil did, I was most pleased with his removal of a few green side bunkers and the return of some dynamic chipping areas and diabolical shaved slopes leading up the the putting surfaces.  It really calls for accuracy on the approach, or some creative shot making to get it up and down.

JNC Lyon,  Monroe is certainly something to take a close look at IMHO and I would agree with Gil on his praise for this Ross work...very strong with some very deep greenside bunkers and interesting pot bunkering in outstanding locations.

Rochester does have a great collection of very good golf, it boasts 5 Ross tracks,  Oakhill east and west, CC of R, Monroe CC, Irondequoit CC, and Brook-Lea CC, probably the weakest of them.

Midvale CC (Thompson & RTJ) holds its own and Stafford CC is a solid Travis course with some intimate green sites and bunkering.  Ian Andrew did some good bunker rebuild/restoring work their about four years ago.  The other more modern venues that John Foley points out are fun to play, but don't compare (not fair too really) to the classic tracks mentioned.

Phil_the_Author

Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2005, 10:34:37 AM »
On August 18th of 1935, Tillinghast visited and examined the course at the Rochester CC. This was the 4th day of his nearly 2 year long tour.

According to the letter that he sent to George Jacobus, he did a "critical review of the entire golf course..." He gave this review to the club and it wasn't part of what he sent to the PGA.

It would be very interesting to find out if the club had this report, see how they responded to it and especially see if the later renovations involved any of his recommendations.

JNC Lyon

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2005, 08:21:34 PM »
Dan, Jason, et al.

It is great to hear the good comments about Rochester as a city.

The bunkering at Monroe is the most interesting and random I have seen outside of CCR. Many were directional, strategic, and altogether hidden. Ross made great use of terrain (as always) to create a variety of shots based solely on greens and their surrounding contours.

John Foley:

I just played Mill Creek for the scond time today. I have to say it is a fantastic golf course, with multiple lines of play on every hole. A few holes took some time to fully understand. The clubhouse sits atop of a drumlin, with 6 holes cascading down or hiking up the mountain. Tree maintenence is superb, as only four or five holes really have trees in play, several of them playing strategic roles, no stick trees. Alternate fairways are more of a rule than an exception, but they aren't hokey, and they tend to follow with the land. Albanese is listed as the architect, and he gives the course some Dye-like influence, but he still establishes an original style at the same time. I would love talk more about the course in detail, with photos, on this board, as it will most likely receive little non-local exposure.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

John Foley

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2005, 09:06:04 PM »
JNC,

I ran into a friend last night who spoke highly of Mill Crrek also. I play much of my golf at Ravenwood & Greystone. I enjoy Ravenwood very much, but the greens (w/ the exception of 3 & 9)  are a little to flat. I like the movement of the greens at Greystone tremendously. The 2nd, 10th, 13th, 17th & 18th are first class.

How do the greens compare to either Greystone or Ravenwood.

I think I need to do some field work very soon!!
Integrity in the moment of choice

JNC Lyon

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2005, 09:17:54 PM »
John-
I agree the greens at Ravenwood are too flat in many cases, the 2nd green being my favorite green, with the "crater". The Mill Creek greens are a mix of the two: nothing as wild as Greystone, but very interesting nonetheless. The greens lay well on the land, and they create many more interesting putts. I played Greystone for the first time this weekend, and I was simply defeated by the length. I was suitably impressed with Holes 5-8, and 14 was probably my fave at the course. However, Mill Creek leapfrogs past these two courses easily. Some field work would by greatly advised! :)
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Patrick Hitt

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2005, 09:01:29 AM »
Although Mr. Hanse recently built a three hole practice area at Monroe GC. the club had been working from a Brian Silva master plan for years to restore parts of the golf course. Former Super. Patrick Gertner and his crew used soil probes and hand tools to resore original bunker shapes over a number of years. Too bad some of the membership still prefers wall to wall green and pines that obscure Ross mounds and lines of play. Still one of the best 17 hols of Ross that most will never see.

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2005, 12:01:50 PM »

BCrosby

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2005, 12:27:04 PM »
I've been curious about Monroe for a while.

A couple of Ross's drawings for Monroe show up in G. Thomas's book. It was apparently highly thought of back in the day.

Bob

ed_getka

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2005, 08:38:06 PM »
I find the situation at Monroe to be perplexing. Patrick Gertner was working on the things we support on this site, but was let go because the membership wanted the Oak Hill look (green), while Patrick was trying to get to firm and fast, and reducing tree #'s. Now they bring in Gil Hanse, who would be more likely to go in the direction of Patrick, rather than Oak Hill lush. Does this make sense to anyone here?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

JNC Lyon

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2005, 09:41:17 PM »
All I can say condition-wise does not have a bias toward green. The ground is always firm, almost locally famous for it. I hit several fairway woods which ran for easily fifty yards. The conditions are ideal for the ground game.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Patrick Hitt

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Re:CC of Rochester, Monroe Golf Club Restorations
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2005, 07:51:17 AM »
JNC,
The conditions are ideal for the ground game because the course was built on a natural sand deposit. The soil provides outstanding drainage and firmness but the bunker faces tend to get heat stressed in the summer more easily. A recent ( a few years ago ) upgrade in the irrigation put more heads in or near the rough making it possible to water many of the bunker faces. The choice to leave the bunker faces brown turned out to be the "wrong" one. Certainly one of the side effects of having a major up the street.  :'(