Eden vs Redan

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Uncle George,
I'm saying that I haven't seen anything yet that comes close. I have yet to see an Eden that can even come close in interest as the original.

I also think you don't compare the Redan or the Eden. Two completely different golf holes that prove their worth in variety and  challenge.

Surprisingly, the Eden has always been said to be the most copied  one-shot hole in golf. I don't believe that. If it was, surely there would be one that would be better then the original ala the failings of the original Redan and how these original holes more or less popped-up naturally or had natural beginnings.  

These holes do evolve though.

[Brian Phillips]

George and Tommy,

Do not think that there is a problem with space to duplicate/replicate Eden?  You really do need all the other bunkers as well as the fall offs here and there to really copy it.

There is less room needed for a Redan.

Brian

[George_Bahto]

Tommy: I think the Redan STRATEGY is the most copied strategy in golf.

I say that because there are so many Redan strategies on second or approach shots, not just as a one-shotter.

The Macdonald trio often built these "two-shot" Redans - they are all over their courses (very often on the finishing holes). I don't think they were thought of that way until recently - and was/is not only their work but it shows up in virtually all architect's work - even today.

12 at Fishers Island a wonderful example.

I also think that the Eden strategy should be used more often on greens of 2 and 3-shot holes. They are often there but are not “recognized” as such.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tommy: I think the Redan STRATEGY is the most copied strategy in golf.

I say that because there are so many Redan strategies on second or approach shots, not just as a one-shotter.

George-

  Right.  Obviously, The Creek #1 green is a such example-not a redan shape, but the kick shoulder front right that will scoot a ball to the back left.  Would you agree another example is present in Creek #6, in reverse-the front left shoulder will carry balls to the back and right portions of the 'bathtub' or 'punchbowl' green?  

  I think there are a couple greens at Beechtree that have a feature similar--throw it in to one side, and let it carry down.  Cory, if you're reading this?

Kyle Harris noticed the orientation of the 11th green at Jeffersonville had similar placement on the land--the crest of a hill sloping gently from right to left.  Whether this was intended or not, I don't know.  Kyle, are you reading this?  

George-I know Banks built a few at Knoll West, right?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Uncle George and Cousin Dougie, ( )

My point was that in many of the old books, there was a claim that the Eden was the most copied hole in golf. In fact, I think MacKenzie even claimed it and maybe even Simpson. I would look to find some quotes, but time is a pressin' for the day.

Yes, the Redan feature is a much copied one, but the point is that any feature that kicks a ball on to a green shouldn't neccessarily be called a Redan. The Sandy Parlour @ Deal for instance. It was a complete blind shot over a dune with nasty deep bunkers and sandy waste on both sides. Gently falling of the slack of the dune, on the left side was a sloped approach/landing area that kicked the ball right into a tier-like contour of the green which shot it back left on this fall-away green towards the pin.

Should that be called a Redan?

I don't think so. A Redan-like entrance of a green, say like the 5th @ Merion or what Wayne Morrison wants to pull off at Fox Chase CC may be inspired, but its hardly a Redan. And I think that's the main source of Brian's contention since last year's interesting thread and posts on Redan's and the 7th at Shinnecock.

The fact was that many features to get the ball moving in all sorts of directions and to be able to commit and then pull off those shots is what the architecture of those holes was all about. These features have/had character that is sorely missing in today's modern world of golf architecture. It's really great that we can get into them because this is where the beauty, the charm and most definitely the interest of great golf architecture comes from.

And Brian, what did you think of the greatest golf course of them all this weekend?!?!?!

[Brian Phillips]

Tommy,

I saw the light for the first time in May when I played it with a couple of low handicap players.  I enjoyed watching them struggle, fight and caress the course to low scores while I just bumped the ball around still enjoying it while racking up a score.

After this weekend I feel blessed to have played the course.....I hope I am forgiven...it only took five rounds, 4 years and a British Open...

There is no other course...

Even my wife and kids love the place and they don't even play golf...


Brian

ps..for once Mr N you were right...you had better print this out....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick - about adding length to these Edens these days:
Ok, so the Eden was meant to be played testing middle iron skills - so what can you do?

Keep it at 165-175, but, alter the goal the golfer must seek and its relationship to trouble.[/color]

Adding SOME length, I don’t personally find it objectionable but there is a limit!

No way 200 yds, although it may be the nearing the appropriate length (....especially after having played a few days with the “big-bomber” Neil Regan - for him I think Eden for him, 220 would work fine!!)

This is where we disagree.
I think 165-175 is more than adequate.
Having played with Neil, there's no doubt he's long and strong.
But, the problem with Eden's today is twofold.  Green speeds and the failure of the clubs to locate the hole in difficult or highly tactical positions.

On most of the Eden's I've played, the hole is right in the middle of the damned green, offering little in the way of pressure or the demand for a high degree of execution on the approach shot.

And, with holes in the mid-green, a relatively easy two-putt is presented should the approach shot reach the putting surface.

Placing hole locations near or behind the bunkers creates great risk-reward.

Fail to execute and you're faced with a very difficult recovery.

Bail to the safe side and you're faced with a very difficult two-putt.

Slower putting surfaces would allow for hole locations higher up on the putting surface, which would place additional demands on the approach, recovery and putting.

Eden's aren't being used as they were intended.

And, I think the problem is systemic.

Too many golf courses place their hole locations in benign positions that defeat the purpose of the architecture and the challenge of the game.

That's the result of political pressure from factions of the membership who want everything "fairer".  Today, if hole locations are a challenge to the membership, they complain and the superintendent is told to be benign with respect to hole locations.

In earlier times, the response would be that the member should work on their game and rise to the challenge that the architect prepared and intended.

Get those hole locations perilously close to trouble and leave the hole at 165-175 and even the Neil Regan's of the world will have their hands full.[/color]

I think for the average “good” player 175 is fine for an Eden today .... my opinion.

AGREED[/color]

Pat, GCGC’s Eden is superb!

AGREED, but, there too, hole locations need to be more challenging.[/color]

NGLA’s Eden is really puzzling to me in a lot of ways but we’ll (I’ll) figure it out one day.

We've discussed this a number of time and I agree.

I don't like the run up feature offered by NGLA's version or the shallow right side, inteloping bunker, I'd like to see it eliminated and the green mowed to putting surface right up to the deep right side bunker.[/color]

Interesting story:

The esteemed Mr. Ben Crenshaw wrote the intro for my book, for which I will forever be in his debt.  I had been asking him this same question ..... the severity of the back to front on 11-High Hole In. He told me about 2 rounds he played with John Daley at TOC at the Open (two times back)  and how Daley, with those great hands, feathered in two shots in two days, in different winds, the pin tucked in over Strath bunker.

The wind one day quartering from the left, so JD feathers in a soft draw - the next day, wind quartering in from the right, JD slides a nice fade in towards the pin.  Ben, in his ever-so-modest way, said he (Ben) was just trying to get his own ball in the “area” of the pin

Superior talent and superior shot making should be rewarded.
You can't view the Eden in the context of Long John Daly when he's playing his best[/color]

My main question is the front to back slope not being replicated (in my opinion) “properly” - whatever that means and the feeding into Strath as a main feature of the hole.
In many cases green speeds have made the mid to back slope unuseable.   Just Look at NGLA..
I would also imagine that those designing current day Edens would take green speeds into consideration when designing the slopes.[/color]

If I am ever fortunate enough to get the opportunity to build an Eden ..... boy, watch out - hah.