Metedeconk and Hidden Creek-

[NAF]

Now I'm probably going to fan the flames here but I'm curious to see among those who have played both, which they would prefer playing given a chance.  I've played Metedeconk 4 times including all 3 nines and would say the 1st/3rd nines are the best.  I've played HC once and need to see it again.

What I admire about both:

Hidden Creek-

1) While it is NOT a heathland course (and too many people label it as such) it is INSPIRED by what makes UK Inland golf courses great

2) Routing that maximizes the property and takes advantage
    of its subtleties

3) Terrific bunkering and green complexes

4)  The vision thing- There is a vision and purpose to the course, it is a members place to play and it doesnt need to sell itself by anything more or less.

Metedeconk

1) Roger Rulewich done right.  Has a PV like look, craggy bunkers, strategic holes. If he could build bunkers like this, what happened at Yale?

2) Wonderful par 5s and testing par 4s, some tough green complexes and shots that make you squirm.  Try the 2nd shot into the finisher on the 3rd nine.  The green complex on the 1st nine's finisher is a tough cookie as well.

3) Challenge- I don't feel I can shoot my handicap at MNGC.  It is a tough place to play especially from the back, yet I don't feel like I'm getting crushed either.

The only thing I don't like about MNGC are the par 3s. Vapid and boring.  And this would be the easiest thing to correct.  I especially don't like the dropping par 3 to the peninsula water green on the 1st nine.

MNGC is a course that gets no play on this site and I always wonder why.... Does anyone have pix?

On a day to day basis methinks HC is a better course for a member, but MNGC is a great place for a game..

[George Pazin]

Jeff Fortson started a really interesting thread about Metedeconk following one of the Metro NY pro things (sorry, don't know the proper name of the org). I'd guess it was two years ago.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Metdeconk has my affection for several reasons the first of which it was my first time playing with Mike C and Bill V.

I could honestly say that I like it as much as Spyglass Hill and maybe more.

To add to what Noel said, in the 27 holes there is but one short, sporty par 4 hole and that is the requesite water laden risk reward drive type.  This course needs at least one more short 4.  

The 5 pars are truly OUTSTANDING.  As good as the 5 pars are the 3 pars suck (Typical RTJ type carries over ponds ior marsh).

I find Metedeconk highly under rated and would enjoy playing it and Hidden Creek regularly if were lived closer.

[NAF]

If I recall Jeff found it penal and tough on the good player.. If it is penal, it is in the PV type of penal in my opinion.. Maybe for the tournament they had there the width that is present for the member wasnt there, I don't know.  It is a tough course, no doubt about it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Noel,

Don't you know that you can't compare and contrast courses here because that would require citing their shortcomings as well as their attributes?

Here, somewhat Zenlike, we just focus on each individual course as a universe until itself.

Bad Noel...BAD Noel.  

Be the course Noel.  

[Mike_Cirba]

By the way Noel, no fair not telling us which one of the two you prefer!  

Personally, I'd play HC 6 out of 10, but Metedeconk is a more thrilling, if more severe course.  I just feel that I could relax and get a good game going quicker at HC.    

I'm sure that will bring the wrath of Patrick down on me.  He HATES Metedeconk.  

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

My message was not that you cannot or should not compare and contrast courses.  My intent was twofold.  One, that shouldn't be the primary reason for going as Mike Malone stated in his status quest.  The other is that a course should be compared to like courses; in the case of Hidden Creek to the Heathland courses that inspired it and/or to courses in like terrain and soil type.

There is certainly less of a point to comparing and contrasting a parkland course like Rolling Green to a seaside course like Boca Raton South or a Jersey Pinelands course like Hidden Creek to a bay course like Atlantic City Country Club?  For that matter Hidden Creek to Forsgate.  I think it is OK to do so, everybody should be happy, but pointing out a flaw in the process, at least in my mind, is all I was getting at.

I like your method of comparing different styles of courses by the number of times out of 10 you would play each of two courses.  It is less about ranking and more about appeal.

[astavrides]

Mike,



I like your method of comparing different styles of courses by the number of times out of 10 you would play each of two courses.  It is less about ranking and more about appeal.

I like this method too, but this is purely a thought experiment since no one has 10 rounds and then decides to divide them up and then goes out and does it.  I also believe that there are other good methods of comparison, such as which would you rather play again for the second time if you have played each only once.   Or which would you rather be a member of (all other things being equal).  Or which would you advise someone else to play if they are only able to get to one of them.

[Don Herdrich]

I think NAF hits the nail on the head........HC is a great course day to day for the membership (#1 intent for any golf course) and MNGC is a very good championship test..........I would dare say MNGC is as hard as any in the northeast from the tips.........the only two places I have played that I considered harder that day were Oakmont and Shinnecock (in a 25mph wind).....

[NAF]

Wayne- Judging by that criteria.. and only 1 round at HC is tough for me to say.. I'd probably go 6-4 like Mike.

For some scale-- here would be my 10 round criteria for courses that are comparable..

Deal vs. Sandwich (6-4)
Deal vs. Rye (6-4)
Deal vs. St Enodoc (5-5)
St. Enodoc vs. Westward Ho (7-3)
St. Enodoc vs. Saunton (7-3)
Swinley vs. Sunningdale Old (7-3)
Woking vs. Westhill (6-4)
Berkshire vs. Westhill (7-3)
NGLA vs. Shinny (6-4)
NGLA vs. Maidstone (6-4)
Shinny vs. Maidstone (6-4)
Pac Dunes vs. Bandon (8-2)
Cypress vs. Pebble (8-2)

[wsmorrison]

Stavros,

I won't hijack this thread any further but here's Mike's quote in context:

"I played HC in order to make a judgement as to what I thought its status should be. That I came away thinking--very good member's course and a 6 on the Doak Scale is predominantly a" feeling". Unfortunately, it is necessary to put it into words here."

This is his quote that I referred to.  Not that he played it for one of many reasons and that reason was during multitasking.  His words, not mine.

[Patrick_Mucci]

NAF,

I guess the answer lies in where I chose to join.

I find Metedeconk a very hard golf course, probably more demanding off the tee than Pine Valley and certainly much longer than HC.

Hence, for this and other reasons I'd favor HC day in and day out by a wide margin.

[wsmorrison]

Noel,

I trust we'll be getting together soon, hopefully when this Low finally moves off the east coast    Give me a call, or I'll try you on your cell.

I like your take on your beloved Deal.  Hope to get back there sometime in the not too distant future.  I haven't played a lot of the courses you selected, so all I can account for is:

Shinnecock 6-4 vs. NGLA
Sandwich 6-4 vs. Deal

Stavros,

Fair enough.  End of that story.

[NAF]

Pat-

MNGC is at least $100k to join so HC is much easier on the checkbook as well although Exit 98 on the Garden State is a bit easier than exit 38 especially in summer traffic!

Like you said MNGC is a supreme test but I've played it under conditions that it had width and firm and fast and enjoyed it.  I would like the opportunity to see HC again especially after having logged approx. 10 more rounds on the UK inland courses since playing there.

Wayne- Au contraire mon Frerer on Deal vs. Sandwich..  I find a duality interesting b/t the two and of course I am bias being a member at Cinque Ports.  Deal is both a fairer test and yet just as quirky or even quirkier than Sandwich.  It is also a good 1-2 shots HARDER!  The major difference b/t the two is that the greens hold at Sandwich and don't have the contours they do at Deal.  One must golf their ball with supreme fortitude at Deal or know how to play all the quirky shots of yesteryear-- one reason Ran did great during his round and impressed David Dobby who has played there for 50 years.  The routing at Sandwich being more Muirfield like is superior to some but I reckon Deal is the closest course in spirit and design to St. Andrews in a lot of ways and the land is that much better for golf too.

I used to agree with your Shinny vs. National assessment but since W. Salinetti got there and the way NGLA plays now, I just love it.


Yes we must get out to play but BABY FREEMAN is due on July 8 so July is likely going to be a goose-egg for playing.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,  

   Indeed you joined "a very good member's course".

[Patrick_Mucci]

NAF,

Costs to join can be a function of timing.  Early members usually pay less than future members.
I suspect that when HC is as established as MNGC entry costs will be higher.

If both clubs were in the Hamptons, I suspect entry costs would be through the roof.

What are they getting at Easthampton, The Bridge, Atlantic, Sebonack and Friar's Head these days ?

It takes 1 and 1/2 hours to get to MNGC, about 2 hours to HC.
While HC has AC and shore traffic to contend with on the weekends, MNGC has Action Park traffic to contend with all week.

I wanted to play a golf course that was both fun and challenging, and Hidden Creek fulfills that quest.

I don't find the golf at MNGC to be fun.
I find it far more demanding, and on a day in and day out basis that would be too overwhelming for me.

[NAF]

Pat-

Golf is LUDICROUS in this country compared to what it is overseas in almost any country.  If I lived in London I could join Woking/West Hill or many other courses for about $4,000 and my yearly fees would be about $2000 a year.  Now the plug figure is they are not family/country clubs but I'm not looking for that.  Alpine is ridiculously expensive for me and that is without having paid the entrance fee and I'm not even a full member.  It is close to untenable.  Having spoken to Wayne, the Philadelphia courses are much more hospitable and for value for money offer so much than Met Area golf courses.  The price for exclusivity, our proximity to Wall Street and the cost inflation from so many $ floating around combined with the horrors of public golf (long waits, irritable people) makes any value like HC a bargain--even with a 2hr drive.

[grandwazo]

I played in the Met PGA Pro Am two years ago at Metedeconk and to a man, I could not find anyone who found the course to be a "fair" test, except possibly for the winner of the actual tournament who as far as I remember was the only contestant to finish under par.  The conditioning at that time was also less than acceptable.
I unfortunately had to miss the Hidden Creek outing, so I have no point of reference, but if given the chance to play Metedeconk again, I would politely refuse.

[NAF]

Grandwazo- How many people would want to play Shinny under the USGA conditions and considered that fair?..  Any course can be a horror story under certain setups.. I've played Pasatiempo with greenspeeds that defy the stimpmeter yet didnt blame it on the course nor the design.

[David Panzarasa]

Having played both,,I think I would play HC more. I have played Metedeconk about 20 times a summer for thepast 5 years now or so and it is very nice! 1st and 3rd nines are the best, and it simply is hard! Many of the pros around the state hate that the big tourny is played there every year because it is so difficult. I have played there when they get the rough up high and it is almost no fun to play sometimes if you miss a fairway..and I think the reason I like this MNCC a lot is because it can kind of go into the debate about if we need courses longer or not. That course is just fine in yards and I do not think it is really long, but there is just so much trouble there and when the rough is up, pros will be on their knees crying. I would love to see smoe PGA players play there in PGA conditions and see what they shoot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

NAF,

Comparing SH to MNGC is a stretch by anyone's imagination.

And, water and lost balls in the dense woods isn't very common at SH.

With respect to the cost, you have to remember that the clubs in the UK you mention are GOLF clubs.  Alpine and others are COUNTRY clubs,  and as such the goods and services members want cost far more than just the cost for  golf.

[NAF]

Pat-

I was not comparing the 2 architectually, just the set up for tournaments.. Obviously no one complained the first 2 days at SH.  I've not played MNGC with the rough up.. For that matter I played Prairie Dunes after the US Women's Open. The gunsch was horrible, I lost a tremendous amount of golf balls as did Dr. Childs and Monsieur Cirba I recall but it did not detract from how great I thought the design was.  The gunsch can be pared back, just like the rough..

We need more golf clubs then Pat, perhaps why many men want to me members of GCMC.

[wsmorrison]

Noel,

Then let's play before Baby Freeman gets here.  We've got all of June.  Otherwise, see you in late summer or early Autumn.

"Wayne- Au contraire mon Frerer on Deal vs. Sandwich.."
You're not turning French, are you?  Spend a little time there, play some great courses and he's talking Frenchy.  You sure know a lot more about those two courses than I do, having only been to each once.  So I'll have to go back and see what you mean sometime.

What did David think about Ran's tee ball on 1  I'm sure it must have been a blast to watch him play those old fashioned shots with the hickories around that great course of yours.  


By the way, those photos of your trip, especially NZ and Morfontaine are wonderful!

[Patrick_Mucci]

NAF,

First of all, playing with two or more lefties in a foursome is grounds for calling your sanity into question, especially with those two..

Viewing Shinnecock in the context that play of the golf course, by it's members,  is equivalent to the play of the golf course on the last two rounds of the US Open is absurd.

I think the financial issues, if the economy turns, and perhaps, even it it doesn't, will bring about a trend that reduces or eliminates many non-golfing functions.

I hear Board members and Presidents stating that without outings dues or assessments would go up considerably.
The providing of a broad spectrum of goods and services may be beyond the membership's abiility to support it, financially.

I think something has to give and that those clubs that are run efficiently, which is tough to do if there's dining at the club, will prevail.

[grandwazo]

NAF, fair comment, but truth be told, the weather was totally benign during my single visit and my group, including our pro, felt that the golf course was unfair, from the fairway, not from the rough.  The greens were not particularly fast, but were inconsistent.  The fairways were also in pretty bad shape, but I am sure the conditioning that week was the exception not the rule.
 
A week later I was in the hospital with a burst appendix, originally misdiagnosed because I thought the severe stomach pains I was experiencing were from water I had tasted from coolers on the course.
 
Anyway, it's subjective, and you obviously have had more playing experience on the course so I would defer to your judgement.  I was out at Shinnecock Friday and Saturday during the Open, and no one was complaining.  The issue with the way the greens turned on Sunday are not indicative of the golf course or its design, just bad luck.  I've played Shinnecock 4-5 (going out again on June 30th) and enjoyed the golf course regardless of the conditions, neither wind, rain, summer heat or fall chill could take away from the sheer pleasure of walking those holes....I'm not sure anyone will ever say that about Metedeconk.  They do have one of the best practice areas I have ever seen btw.
Jeff