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NAF

Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« on: May 25, 2005, 11:25:39 AM »
As many of you know I recently did a Colt/Simpson trip thru the Lowlands of Holland/Belgium as well as Paris.  I took the Eurostar to Deal for a few days but before flying out of Heathrow took a peak at my new amigo Tom Simpson's New Zealand Golf Club with RT.  All I can say is Wow!  I only saw 1/2 the course as there was a member competition on.  It was actually quite funny as the members are a bit on the older side and seemed to enjoy a lot of kummel before teeing off.   To contrast what I saw at the Simpson courses in Europe vs. New Zealand would mainly be that the bunkers are not as lacy.  Mortfontaine and Spa have preserved the look that Simpson eschewed right out of The Architectual Side of Golf.  New Zealand's bunkers are not lacy but retain the general shape and look damn good to me.  As you will see, Simpson's greens are as devilish as they come at NZGC and were similar to Spa/Mortfontaine.  I realize Simpson does not have the same portfolio as Colt and while Colt may be the master--sort of a Rembrandt of golf architecture. Without a doubt, Simpson is the Van Gogh.  I do believe this course could be a great model for Ran's Carthage Club.. The maestro's words not mine..

Bunker/Green complex at #15.. Short par 4.. Has crossbunkers at 300 yards out..This bunker is a little high but initimidating.

 
The wonderful par 3 16th..198 yards..slightly uphill.. Reminded me of #2 at Mortfontaine!


Again the 16th



Bunker at #17-dogleg left to well bunkered green..


 
Green complex at the 18th-hows this for a false front to kick off your approach. 18th is long par 4 to finish.


« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 11:47:04 AM by NAF »

Steve Curry

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Re:Tuco visits Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2005, 11:30:43 AM »
Naffer,

I just looked at these and it struck me how much I like dirty sand.

Steve

NAF

Re:Tuco visits Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2005, 11:36:30 AM »
Some more--

Green at 17



Cross bunkers that force you to lay up on #15.

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tuco visits Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2005, 11:36:33 AM »
Great photos Noel, seems like a place to certainly add to the list.

Was the contour on 18 indicative of the rest of the course?

NAF

Re:Tuco visits Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2005, 11:40:25 AM »
The contour on every Simpson green was sharp at NZGC. But the same can be said for Mortfontaine and Spa.  He never lets up. In fact, the flattest Simpson green I saw was #12 at Mortfontaine which Kyle Phillips is moving to lengthen the hole.. Given Mortfontaine is so well preserved, I'm surprised they are doing it but if they were going to let one Simpson green go I guess that is the least wild one.

More of 16-17..


 

 

 


Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2005, 11:47:31 AM »
Where exactly is this course?

NAF

Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2005, 11:48:13 AM »
In Addlestone, near Woking.. About 20 mins to Heathrow.

Verrrrrrrrry Private!  Gate to get in..

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2005, 11:56:31 AM »
New Zealand looks very interesting. I've long wondered about what was left there. Thanks for the photos, Noel.

Hey Steve,

The sand in the bunkers struck me immediately as well. I also like dirty sand! And, it's nice to find a superintendent that agrees. I hear too many greenkeepers talking about the absolute need for liners these days. I'm still not convinced...
jeffmingay.com

George Pazin

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Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2005, 12:04:40 PM »
Terrific photos. I think the fact that you're standing in the 18th fairway helped to bring out the contour. (Or were you just proving to your wife that you were there? :))

If only they had some dramatic elevation changes, this course would be ranked much higher! And some blindingly white sand!!

 ;D
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2005, 12:15:06 PM »
NAF
Having grown up in England and realising that private is a variable term, are we talking similar to Sunningdale or more private?????

Paul_Turner

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Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2005, 12:17:50 PM »
Noel

You look simply ecstatic!
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

NAF

Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2005, 12:27:52 PM »
Tuco wanted to stay and play but couldnt Paul.. Notice the all black dress--mod and chic, London cool!  I

We are talking as private as Sunningdale or more..Michael.. and the members like it like that.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 12:31:36 PM by NAF »

T_MacWood

Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2005, 12:47:16 PM »
Noel
Fabulous pictures. I just can't get over how well-preserved this golf course is.

David_Tepper

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Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2005, 02:15:47 PM »
NAF -

Thanks very much for the New Zealand pix. They bring back some nice memories for me. I did my Surrey 'stockbroker's belt' tour of the heathland courses 20 years ago. I played the usual suspects (Sunningdale, Berkshire, Wentworth) and was sent over to New Zealand by the Club Secretary at St. George's Hill, as that course was full with a society outing the morning I showed up. I never did get to play the latter, but I am very glad I played the former.

DT  

Steve Okula

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Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2005, 05:25:46 PM »
I'm sorry I missed you in France.

Please tell us more of your impressions of Morfontaine and St. Germain.

Did you go to St. Cloud?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

T_MacWood

Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2005, 07:56:59 PM »
Noel
I suspect some of the features at New Zealand (like the cross-bunker on 15) are leftover from the original course designed by S. Mure Ferguson (1895). NZ was a landmark course, being one of the first (if not the first) courses built through a forest.

RT

Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2005, 06:54:47 AM »
Tom,

It looked like they were preparing the soil for some heather plantings on the right side of no. 17, tight to the fairway proper.  There is a tree thinning program to alleviate some of the birch on the forest borders to help the sun penetrate to aid in the development of Rhododendrons.

Must say we caught it at a great moment; a swift sharp rain squall had just doused the course that opened up to these wide expansive blue skies and brilliant quality of sunshine.  A great time of year to play there, along with the end of August.

RT

NAF

Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2005, 07:05:27 AM »
Tom Macwood-

Would Simpson being the major domo/gran fromage that he was leave any attibute on a course that was done by a no name in your opinion?  It definitely felt Simpson like when we were out there.. I don't know what the club has archived but it would fun to find out..


Steve-

Sorry we did not get together at St. Germain.  I hope to get back to the Paris next year..  Stuart was a great host and I'm lucky he showed me the way thru Parisian traffic to get the Eurostar at Gare Du Nord or I would still be traveling round a 7 lane roundabout somewhere near the Champs E'lyse.

Here are some thoughts:

1) Mortfontaine- Awesome stuff, lots of blind rising fairway drivers to immaculate green sites worthy of Augusta and terrific original bunkering.  If they have the tees back, it is quite a challenge as a par 70.  What I found amazing was the lacy bunkering looks like Simpson did it yesterday and the course plays with plenty of width but needs two rounds b/c you need to look at the greens to find the ideal areas to land approaches.  One caveat, the club is moving the par 5 12th green under Kyle Phillips about 40 yards back to a spectacular green site.. They also made a longer tee box as well.  I can't figure out why they will get rid of the Simpson green, the smallest and lowest profile on the course but it will still be a very good hole.  All of the par 3s are excellent and the long two shotters require you move the ball around from both angles to fairways that will either help or hurt you depending on Simpson's creativity.  The property is right out of Surrey.  I'd  say it is the equal of  Sunningdale with many of the attributes that make Swinley so nice.  I found it interesting and a testament to Simpson's principles that many of the best holes had NO bunkering at all--the green defends itself.

Really missed seeing the old ancient 9 there that Simpson did first, it is not part of the championship 18 but it actually looked like Pine Valley in spots with some of the craziest greens.. Paul and I only saw a few of these holes, not the whole course, we were sad but had to leave to play St. Germain.  

2) St. Germain- We played 6 Colt courses on this trip and this had the worst property yet was easily my favorite.  Why?  Colt built some tremendous angles that make it a hoot to play.  Using fill to build up great crossbunkers/green complexes, you really have to work the ball here to get in the right places.  And despite the parkland flatness, Colt makes it feel harmonious throughout with some sweeping holes and great par 3s (including the 17th) where a big sinkhole is not evident until you get to the green.  The 7th hole there had the biggest false front I've see other than the Eden Hole for a par 3.  Paul would probably say it was in the middle of the courses we saw, but I got the biggest kick playing it.  The vista across the 5th, 7th, 10th and 11th holes is quite amazing for a boring piece of land.  Stuart did a great job explaining the course's subtleties.

Paul went to St. Cloud without me as I left for England.. He wrote this to me about it..

St Cloud starts of a bit slowly.  But last 13 holes are over good heaving terrain.  Not as messed up as I thought it might be.  Cool par 3s  as usual and great finisher.

 


« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 07:13:45 AM by NAF »

T_MacWood

Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2005, 01:21:40 PM »
Noel
Mure Ferguson wasn't a no name. He was a big shot (he designed a golf course for the King) and New Zealand was one of the early important golf courses. I'll have to check my research, but I think he did keep or adapt some of the early courses features. At the time he was Fowler's partner (and probably abercromby and croome), he was marginally more under control in those years.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2005, 07:41:19 PM »
Noel,  So glad you liked New Zealand.  I'm always nervous about recommending certain courses which retain an air of aloofness which I have been lucky enough to have played.  Was it that that special permission to play which made me more enthusiastic than I should have been?  I always ask that question of myself, but am I being honest?

As to the elevation changes (or lack of them), one only needs to play New Zealand and Royal Antwerp to realise that a good design can surmount such apparent deficiencies. To subsequently experience RGC de Fagnes and Royal Belgique simply demostrates how design by a master craftsman is not a matter of style, formula or dogma, but simply an intelligent response to the situation.

It's not my business to rank Simpson against Colt, Mackenzie, Fowler or any of the classic US architects.  Was Mozart better than Haydn, or Beethoven better than Schubert?  Enough said - throw in a few genii from other generations (Bach, Monteverdi, Stravinsky or Shostakovich, for instance) and the futility of such comparison is immediately apparent.

Please report back on other recent European experiences.

Mark.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 07:44:25 PM by Mark_Rowlinson »

NAF

Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2005, 07:33:58 AM »
Mark-

I wonder if the Mortfontaine experience adds to the allure.  You come to the locked gate and ring the clubhouse and ask for permission to come and frolic, play on their golf course. The gate pulls back--is it that exclusivity that adds to your view of the golf course?  I wonder...

i understand the futility of ranking golf architects, it is just that I think Simpson is very underrated now.   I was just surprised at how well his work is preserved and how artistic it is.

By the way, I try to listen to Mozart before playing now so that the music plays in my head when I'm hitting golf balls.  I always seem to find Eine Kleine Nachtmusik  most soothing.  But then it makes me wish I was in Vienna on a late summer's eve with my wife strolling along.  I digress.

I have written other threads (Notes from the Underground) about Paul and my trip.  I'm waiting for Paul to add pictures but he is quite busy at the moment, he just got ENGAGED and is moving house to boot.

I will say this, we both think you should revisit Royal Zoute.  Although we had to talk the caddymaster into letting us play (same thing happened at Spa despite me having set up tee times at both), we found the course a terrific links in the spirit of Lytham.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2005, 07:34:30 AM by NAF »

RT

Re:Visit to Tom Simpson's New Zealand GC (Surrey) Pix!
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2005, 09:39:46 AM »

thought to add this one of no. 17