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TEPaul

"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« on: May 25, 2005, 10:38:39 AM »
I think Geoff Shackelford's six page original essay entitled "What Happened to the Revolution?" in the Shackelford/Miller book "The Art of Golf Design" just may be the best, most comprehensive and understandable essay that can be found anywhere on not just what occured from the time of the so-called "Golden Age" of architecture until today but also how and why. And all of that in a mere six large pages!

If anyone, any club, either has done or is planning on doing a restoration of a golf club built pre-WW2 this essay should be made available to them as a starting point in understanding. The reason I say that is because if this six page essay can't lead them to understand what happened in the last 50-75 years and can't persuade them of the interest and natural beauty of where the Golden Age may have been heading, I can't imagine what could.

The factors that brought to an end not just the actual continuation of the type of fascinating architecture of the Golden Age but perhaps the end of the dream of those that were part of it about where it (the Revolution) may've led in the future is just so interesting. Many of those contributing factors are global with little or nothing to do specifically with golf or architecture.

What happened to create the so-called "hiatus" (or "disconnect") in golf architecture as well as what it did to the direction of architecture and golf itself in the latter half of the 20th century is so interesting. Most of the primary contributing factors had nothing specifically to do with with a denial or dissatisfaction for the dreams of those Golden Age architects either. Due to a whole laundry list of other reasons it just "happened".

This is a really good essay. Maybe Geoff can reprint it on here. If one has the book I suggest you read it and when you're done read it again and take it over to your pre-WW2 clubs and try to get as many of there to read it too. On Monday even Geoff Shackelford said maybe he should read it again too!

George Pazin

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2005, 10:47:29 AM »
Just mindlessly speculating here, but I think one of the (few) downsides of the ever increasing amount of information we receive is that too many folks get caught up in what others think.

Post WWII, it seems as though people were enthralled with the celebrity of RTJ and his transformation of Oakland Hills into The Monster.

Later on golfers got obsessed with rankings and where their course(s) stood.

I don't think people really change, so I believe these problems existed during the Golden Age as well. It's just that we now disseminate information so quickly that people rarely take the time to reflect on anything.

I'm already looking forward to digging out my copy of Geoff's book and rereading the essay tonight.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2005, 11:25:37 AM »
Persaonally, I feel the "Revolution" which is some ways was the Golden Age but should have continued on right out of it as we know it today, has come about after all--probably in about the last ten years.

In my opinion, even if it does offend the sensibilities of those who glorify the best courses of the Golden Age era, I think some of the courses built in the last decade or so are even more natural looking in many of their man-made features than even the best of the Golden Age ones ever were. And there're a few specific reasons I feel that way.

Even some of the strategies of some of those really good ones built in the last decade or so may be as interesting as some of the best of the Golden Age. The "sportiness" (quirkiness and unpredictablity) of some of the best of the Golden Age have not yet been matched in modern times, though, in my opinion, except in a few rare hole cases.

One wonders if it ever will be again. It just may be that the mentality of "fairness" or the attitude that a rather high degree of predicitablity is necessary in golf is just too prevalent to ever accept much else.

BCrosby

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2005, 11:37:38 AM »
TEP says:

"Even some of the strategies of some of those really good ones built in the last decade or so may be as interesting as some of the best of the Golden Age. The "sportiness" (quirkiness and unpredictablity) of some of the best of the Golden Age have not yet been matched in modern times, though, in my opinion, except in a few rare hole cases.

One wonders if it ever will be again. It just may be that the mentality of "fairness" or the attitude that a rather high degree of predicitablity is necessary in golf is just too prevalent to ever accept much else."

I think TEP is on the money here. The best of the courses built in the last decade are a match for anything built during the Golden Age in all things - except the quirk.

People are overly concerned with fairness. Equitable results.

The notion that great holes have wide scoring spectrums is linked with this. Moderns resist the idea becasue wide scoring spectrums often involve a disconnect between effort and results. Us moderns have a very hard time dealing with that, in golf or in any other enterprise.

Bob    

 

George Pazin

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2005, 11:57:34 AM »
People are overly concerned with fairness. Equitable results.

I'd say this is true, but likely the result of being bombarded with stroke play golf on TV. The older guys seemed more concerned with match play than stroke play.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2005, 12:01:20 PM »
"The notion that great holes have wide scoring spectrums is linked with this. Moderns resist the idea becasue wide scoring spectrums often involve a disconnect between effort and results. Us moderns have a very hard time dealing with that, in golf or in any other enterprise."

Bob:

Today, or in relatively modern times it gets even odder than that. How can one account for the fact that there are a number of really famous and apparently respected old holes out there but for some strange reason no one today really dares to build their kind again?? In a very real sense the very same thing may be said about the entire Old Course itself---that very place so many have always called the "prototype" or "original blueprint" of all golf architecture. If they really thought that then why didn't they EVER emulate it more?

Even, Hunter (I believe it was) said as much, saying that even though TOC was golf architecture's prototype it still broke almost all the rules in the book. What rules? What book? Is there an architectural "book" somewhere that has a list of "rules" on what should and shouldn't get built? Of course not. As Behr very correctly said it's probably not much more than what he referred to as "The game mind of man.". That mentality unfortunately leads to certain formulaics, standardizations, all of which eventually serve predicitability. Very few architects are willing to buck that sentiment or perception because obviously they think it would lead to real unpopularity. Are they right? Well, that certainly is the $64,000 question, isn't it?

The "luck factor" in golf has been on the defensive for well over 100 years. And it certainly is ironic that it has been. I guess most golfers are just too selfish, too stupid or too intransigient to admit that over most all golfers' lives---luck very much cuts both ways!  ;)

Perhaps less than a handful of times in my golfing life, Lady Luck really smiled on me and at the most extraordinary time. If I never get a good break in golf for the rest of my life it'll be OK because those few times were enough! One is even sort of apropos to golf architecture, because, of all things on here, it actually happened against Rees Jones. All of those few times were not just Lady Luck smiling on me---every one of them was a match ender.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 12:13:27 PM by TEPaul »

Kirk Gill

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2005, 12:03:11 PM »
Question.

Do today's GCA's have more or less power to implement quirkiness into their designs than their Golden Age predecessors?

I'm tempted to believe that they have less ability to implement any quirky ideas, and that a lack of this quality may be the result of "too many hands ruining the soup."

If I'm wrong (a common occurrence) then responsibility for the lack of "sportiness" being referred to on this thread lies at the feet of the architects themselves.

Whom do we sue?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2005, 12:06:31 PM »
George,
I think you have a very valid point there, and I think that is why most on this site embrace the "minimialist" style of modern day architects over their more"modern" counteroarts.

Whnever you play a course of Doak's or C&c or Hanse for example, you truly get the feeling that each hole is strategically designed as an individual entity, that fits into an overall plan, as opposed to an overall plan with various parts...if that makes any sense.

Each hole is a course of it's own so to speak and as such resmble the courses that were desingned back in the day when matchplay ruled.

When playing their courses, you are not thinking ahead just appreciating each hole as it comes, and admiring the manner that they have contoured eveything to fit the surroundings as opposed to just "building" a golf course.

If we are talking revolutions, I believe the models set my the current trend of minimalists are the begining of a new revolution.
100 years from now, this will be the start of what they will call ...The rebirth of the Golden Era....

Long may it continue
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 12:07:39 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

Mike_Cirba

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2005, 12:09:55 PM »
"The notion that great holes have wide scoring spectrums is linked with this. Moderns resist the idea becasue wide scoring spectrums often involve a disconnect between effort and results. Us moderns have a very hard time dealing with that, in golf or in any other enterprise."

Bob:

Today, or in relatively modern times it gets even odder than that. How can one account for the fact that there are a number of really famous and apparently respected old holes out there but for some strange reason no one today really dares to build their kind again?? In a very real sense the very same thing may be said about the entire Old Course itself---that very place so many have always called the "prototype" or "original blueprint" of all golf architecture. If they really thought that then why didn't they EVER emulate it more?


Tom,

That's a great point and something I tried to bring up on the Hidden Creek thread.  

Do you feel that many of the holes at HC offer the potential of "wide scoring spectrums"?  I certainly don't.


TEPaul

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2005, 12:17:07 PM »
Kirk:

Why do you think so much of the great old architecture was done by "amateur architects" or even virtual one-timers? They didn't have clients to answer to, they didn't have things like EPAs and they didn't have the litigous society we live in today either.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2005, 12:30:24 PM »
Tom
I agree with you the reason that the minimalists stand out as different is because they are prepared to build holes with unusual features integrated into their deisgns, rather than just churn out cookie cutter golf courses.
I would imagine that Pete Dye should deserve alot of the credit for initiating that sort of thinking back into golf course architecture, after years of Trent Jones style design which was rather featureless in comparison.
That is not a slam on Trent Jones at all, simply a comparison.

I also think that more exposure ANGC managed to recieve through television at the Masters, only served to encourage that rather featureless appraoch to architecture that dominate the 60's and 70's.
Of course that is not to say that ANGC is lacking any features or quirkiness...but to the viewer they just see manicured grren grass everywhere, and that became what everybody wanted.   Just mho

George Pazin

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2005, 12:33:40 PM »
"The notion that great holes have wide scoring spectrums is linked with this. Moderns resist the idea becasue wide scoring spectrums often involve a disconnect between effort and results. Us moderns have a very hard time dealing with that, in golf or in any other enterprise."

Bob:

Today, or in relatively modern times it gets even odder than that. How can one account for the fact that there are a number of really famous and apparently respected old holes out there but for some strange reason no one today really dares to build their kind again?? In a very real sense the very same thing may be said about the entire Old Course itself---that very place so many have always called the "prototype" or "original blueprint" of all golf architecture. If they really thought that then why didn't they EVER emulate it more?


Tom,

That's a great point and something I tried to bring up on the Hidden Creek thread.  

Do you feel that many of the holes at HC offer the potential of "wide scoring spectrums"?  I certainly don't.



Mike, I've figured it out! You were unduly influenced by playing with the 3 ringers! Of course you guys didn't have much of a scoring spectrum! :)

On a more serious note, I think there are opportunities for bogeys and some doubles, but not many opportunities for the types of penalties that can really jack up one's score. (Not that I personally lacked any; my scorecard, had I kept one, would have been fraught with penalty strokes.)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2005, 12:43:34 PM »
"Do you feel that many of the holes at HC offer the potential of "wide scoring spectrums"?  I certainly don't."

Of course they do Mike! I'm truly surpised you didn't see that or sense it about Hidden Creek. That's probably precisely why Bill Coore thinks it CAN BE hard to score on. Not that it always is but it can be so much of the time. By that he meant that very likely the same way Bob Jones meant to praise and respect the basic architectural theme of the old course---or perhaps ANGC's basic architectural theme too. Courses like those will give a good player (or a player playing and thinking at his ability) the opportunity to shoot a really good score. To do it on courses like those you have to play well and think well too (that's what they're about) and probably have a bit more than your usual allotment of luck too, as most players do from time to time.

But if players aren't doing those things courses like that tend to pick-pocket the shots out of your round in generally little ways. A course like Hidden Creek is not the same type of architecture or course as is PV, or Merion East, or HVGC where any golfer is likely to run into one of those famous "others" on any hole even though most all holes at those courses are birdieable (except obviously #1, #5, #13, #15 PV and #5, #16, 17, 18 Merion).

A wide scoring spectrum on courses like Hidden Creek is driving or practically driving #8 and walking away with a par or worse because you didn't think that well sometimes even back at the tee. The same is true of a number of other holes at Hidden Creek. You may never make a triple or something like any hole at PV but you can make so many more numbers that are a shot or perhaps two higher than you really think you can make and are expecting to make.

In case you don't know it the latter occurence generally drives good players a lot crazier than if they just hit a really bad shot and pay for it with a triple or something.

I absolutely guarnatee Hidden Creek probably more than any course I'm aware of has more players who say; "I hit the ball well but didn't get much out of it." The reason for that isn't just some fact of on-going fate---it's Hidden Creek and what it and it's architecture is all about. It wasn't an accident either. Coore knew that well before the course came into play. I know because he told me so well before anyone ever played it.

A guy like Matt Ward very well may think a course like Hidden Creek isn't demanding enough or something architecturally. It certainly doesn't really look it and in some ways it really isn't (if you play and particuarly think really well and have some luck too) He may even think he can and should go out there day after day and score well on it. But I think I can pretty much guarantee he very rarely ever will. The fascinating thing to contemplate is he may not know why. He may never know why that's likely so at Hidden Creek!  ;)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 12:51:46 PM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2005, 12:45:22 PM »
Tom -

Yes. If you do even the most cursory research into the history of gca, you discover that the vast majority of architectural features that we find most fascinating on the old courses have no progeny.

They died childless and, but for us wingnuts, unloved.

You can think of this in a more abstract way. The very concept of a "natural" looking design, one that follows what the terrain dictates, is in conflict with the notion of "predicability". It is an inherent contradiction. The two concepts aren't even on speaking terms with each other.

For example, one of the reasons Colt, Morrison, Park etc. wanted to move away from the man-made Victorian era look was not only to get back to more natural designs, but to reintroduce the unpredictability of links-like courses. They sought to make the game more interesting by introducing more chance. (Or to use Behr-speak, they wanted golf to be more like a sport and less like a game.)

These days, modern architects have turned those sentiments upside down.

They design "natural" courses that play predictably. A notion that stumbles and falls under the weight of its own internal contradictions.

I think that is one of the reasons we find so much of modern gca wanting. Colt wouldn't have been able to stop laughing at the idea.

Bob  
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 12:47:42 PM by BCrosby »

Mike_Cirba

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2005, 01:20:08 PM »
Tom Paul,

I have a few thoughts for you.

The difference between 3 and 5 is not what is classically referred to as a "wide distribution of scoring".  ;)

Couldn't the same be said for any of the famous RTJ Sr. courses, that were "hard pars but easy bogeys"?  This was usually achieved through large, segmented greens where a reasonably good player could hit the greens but still make a slew of bogeys because he wasn't in the correct spot on the greens.  

Just because the course looks more natural than RTJ Sr.'s stylisms (if that's a word)  doesn't mean it's much different in terms of what you're describing, which sounds to me like "let them get to the green unscathed and then we'll slap em upside the head".  

I'm thinking Moselem Springs by George Fazio with it's large, sprawling green complexes as an example.  It's 3 putt city out there.

Also, when you said that HC can really only handled by a very thoughtful, reasonably thinking fellow, how do you explain the fact that Pat Mucci shot 67 at Hidden Creek on his first go round? ;) ;D  

No wonder he wanted to rush from the 18th green to the 1st tee!!!   ::) :)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 01:22:00 PM by Mike_Cirba »

RJ_Daley

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2005, 02:12:02 PM »
I think the G.C. Thomas quote to start the essay is in part the example of the unintended consequence.  The Captain seems to be  daydreaming of the marriage of "improved productions" (i.e. implied to be the result of technology in construction equipment and course maintenance machinery etc.) with the desire to creatively use the technology to extend the variety and strategy of the game.

The unintended consequence was that technology in every aspect of the design-construction process, to the maintenance process, to the ball and impliment arena, has diminished creativity.  

In the design-construction process, design tools like CADD took away 'some' of the diligent study of the ground by the designer because they could play projection, cut and fill, block feature designs games on the computer screen.  In construction, the new efficient equipment could pound out quirk that the process of higher competitive tour golf was moving away from.  IN the maintenance process, new irrigation tech, new mowing tech could do more specific tasks to yield 'ideal' conditions.  Throw in agronomy turf growth science tech advancements, and they began to dream of 'ideal' conditions.  Ball and impliment tech diminished quirk and strategy.  Bomb it far as you can, get it close enough to a green, and a monkey on a rock can get on and two putt par or one putt birdie or eagle.

The tech didn't yield more creativity.  It yielded strength competition, efficiency, fairness, and idyllic dreams.  

To Thomas's quote:  While they may have revered the cradle for its fine spirit and distinct atmosphere, their culture moved on to different values.  There were no standards in that the few courses that existed prior to 1900 were all over the map in terms of design style.  There is no ultimate in golf, it is a sliding scale based on too many criteria, meaning different things to different players.  And, all that led to strategy as not of the most importance, because strength was where tech in B&I took them.
And, build it because you can do so darn near anywhere with modern means.  What has natural golf ground got to do with it mentality...

The revolution was stiffled by the dreams that tech would solve everything and we could be more than we are - with less work or mental efforts.

Sorry if this sounds like Ted Kazinsky, but it just sort of struck me that way rereading the essay and Thomas's quote.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 02:20:49 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Eric Pevoto

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Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2005, 02:13:05 PM »
I really like this topic.  This type of conversation is what draws me to GCA, though I think too often we're preaching to the choir.  In a few short posts, several seemingly valid reasons for the change have been brought out.  It's all a question of expectations and where they've come in the last 80-100 years.

Generally, it's apparent these days a developer wants a salable product and the golfer (consumer) wants fair entertainment, with nothing too taxing mentally or physically.  To me, these sound like creative limits for a golf architect.

As someone whose career has been based on promoting the sport (note:  not necessarily promoting golf commerce), it's frustrating to think that people have become so limited in their view of what golf should be.  Perhaps it is a by-product of too much information.  With so much coming at you, maybe you tend toward what seems safe.  I'm not sure.

I do know with regard to the golfer what once were expectations are now viewed as requirements.  This adds costs and complexity.  Considering cost is a major barrier, you would think everyone in the business would be moving to simplify and streamline, but that's not necessarily the case.  Instead, in an effort to continue to draw consumers, amenities are added and golf courses are updated and built to be more spectacular.

The most interesting question to me, though, is what can be done to change the expectation conundrum.  Is it education, with people like Geoff Shackelford leading the way?  Will market forces guide the way?

Lately, I've been struggling through Stephen Jay Gould's Full House:  The Spread of Excellence from Plato to Darwin(too smart for me!).  One of the examples he posits is the disappearance of .400 hitting in baseball.  Most would view it as proof of worsening play.  He, on the other hand, attributes it to a general increase in the skills of players, standardization, and a shrinkage in variation.  

Conversely, with regard to evolution, he contends that there is no inherent tendency toward progress, it is simply a consequence of increased variation in a system.  (Tom Paul's Big World Theory!).  

This all sounds pretty egg-headed, I know.  But it's interesting to view the history of golf architecture in these terms.  
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

TEPaul

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2005, 02:51:27 PM »
"They died childless and, but for us wingnuts, unloved."

Bob:

No, I really feel it's even odder than even that. Some of those old holes that are famous and respected really are not unloved---although in the mindset of most golfers today "famous, respected and loved" may be virtually indistinguishable! ;) Holes that're actually famous (not infamous), respected and loved but never that much copied (except by perhaps Macdonald) are the likes of the Road Hole, NGLA's #2, #3, #6). I think the reason for it is there's just something about each one of them that flies in the face of some perception of the way things should be today. But those old holes are past that point of criticism or there unchanged because they may been seen now as as such an interesting aspect of golf and architecture's antiquity. They aren't just accepted for that, though, they really are famous, respected and loved. It's just truly odd but it is true.

You said:

"You can think of this in a more abstract way. The very concept of a "natural" looking design, one that follows what the terrain dictates, is in conflict with the notion of "predicability". It is an inherent contradiction. The two concepts aren't even on speaking terms with each other."

Of course they're not. This is almost the fundamental of all that Behr was trying to say THROUGHOUT his essays on golf architecture. Although he didn't actually come right out and state it his obvious point was to draw a comparison between the way man, the golfer, looks at his relationship with Nature vs how he looks at his relationship with his fellow man, in this case his fellow man being a golf course architect.

Behr did actually say that if a golfer is tripped up by some obstacle that he can clearly see is man-made (or conceived by Man) he is far more likely to object to it, and more relevently to criticize it than if he was tripped up by an obstacle (perhaps even the same one) that he either thought looked natural or that he actually knew was put there by Nature.

Behr's reasoning was just that in Man's evolution he tended to look at Nature as something he really couldn't dominate and so he just tended to accept the consequences of the randomness and unpredictablitity of it more readily as it affected his golf or even his entire life.

This fundamental is what Behr based his entire idea of "Permanent Architecture" on. That, and the fact that landforms that actually followed the basic Darwinian evolutionary shapes of the FORCES of Nature (wind and water) in man-made construction would be more likely to withstand those forces of Nature over time and endure. But clearly Behr said those things about a point in time that was well before Man could massively change landforms (the original linksland and the early English Victorian architecture), at least economically and then later at a time even towards the end of the Golden Age somewhat before Man actually could dominate natural landforms as he can do so much more easily now.

You said;

"For example, one of the reasons Colt, Morrison, Park etc. wanted to move away from the man-made Victorian era look was not only to get back to more natural designs, but to reintroduce the unpredictability of links-like courses. They sought to make the game more interesting by introducing more chance. (Or to use Behr-speak, they wanted golf to be more like a sport and less like a game.)"

I don't much agree with that. And that's precisely why I don't agree much with what Tom MacWood considers to be the massive influence of something like the "arts and crafts" movement on the "Golden Age" of golf architecture.

The "Arts and Crafts" Movement was in most ways a reaction to the balanced aesthetics of building architecture emanating all the way from the beginning of the civilizations of Greece and Rome almost two thousand years hence and perhaps even more of a reaction to the dehumanized effects of the juggernaut of the Industrial Revolution of the 19th century. Some of the reaction to the "classic" aesthetic of building architecture took on religious meaning and proportions.

TEPaul

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2005, 02:52:43 PM »
I just don't see golf architecture having similar influences or effects on its rather quick evolution once it finally migrated out of the linksland, first to England and then rather quickly to America and around the world. The so-called "Dark Ages" in golf architecture in England only lasted about 40 years at most and perhaps less than that later in America.

I think the likes of Park and Colt, Morrison, Abercromby, Fowler, Mackenzie, Taylor and then certainly juggernaut architects like Ross or even Findlay or Bendelow could see that blatantly man-made looking architecture just wasn't accomplishing the same over-all effect on golfers that the linksland was always able to do for so many centuries simply because the Scottish linksmen were so fortunate to have that particular make-up of randomly natural land, topography and soil structure and acidity right under their feet as Nature gave it to them eons before.

There were a few early courses like that in England on the coast in those early days but all of them inland did not have those natural gifts. So even the early linksmen like Dunn or even Park gave those first inland English courses some of the same rudimentary architecture that they occasionally put on even linksland courses but only at times and places to basically buttress something. In early English architecture it all had to be made because most of the land was so much less interesting than the Scottish linksland.

And then the time and the money and the soil structure and basic topography became available almost from a hidden state in the English heathlands around 1900.

But in Europe around 1900 and in America 10 or 20 years later the fact that the geometric type of golf architecture that everyone had previously made outside the linksland and on land as unsuited to natural golf as most of it was---and which was precisely the opposite of what the linksland had always been---was simply not accomplishing the same purpose as the linksland courses always had.

Basically those old cross-hazard cop type bunkers that looked more like steepchase courses than golf courses were hurting those very people's enjoyment the game need to grow and become popular and were not challenging much at all those people who were already profficient in the game (of which there were definitely not many at that time).

And so at that point they probably just looked back more carefully at what the real essence of the linksland had always been---that fascinating unpredictable randomness of that land there in Scotland and all that it was about. And then many began to go back there (MacDonald, Ross, Tillinghast, Leeds, Hood, Wilson, Crump, Thomas, Hunter, Behr etc) and study what-all it really was about and to mimic it more carefully and diligently in whatever they made in the future in quality golf architecture. As Behr and others said and implied in what they wrote, at that point they took more than just the "letter" out of it---they began to try to take the "essence" out of it as well. And that's why a course like TOC became the "prototype", the virtual blueprint for man-made golf architecture. And so did the likes of Sunningdale in the English heathlands because, afterall, that was the best example of the FIRST really man-made quality natural looking golf architecture en masse.

But into even the beginning of the Golden Age and certainly at it's virtual end around the Crash, things were a-changing real fast---the golf ball, money, the possibilities of what might come next or later---machinery, technology in golf and construction.

Golf around the world was really coming of age, after the "hiatus" things were truly on the move in golf architecture and Man was at again what man does best---trying to dominate and organize, balance and define---all for the purpose of making things more understandable, predictable and to truly isolate skill which is what he always tries to do in "games" anyway.

But at that point Man did understand for the first time he definitely could begin to dominate Nature (after-all the atom bomb had first been dropped) and take her right out of the equation of a sport that needed her like golf did according to the likes of Max Behr.

At that point golf architecture was looking ahead to all that man could do with it himself and it was a helluva lot--certainly a helluva lot more than he'd ever been able to do with golf architecure before. The linksland/Heathland model was behind them then and they never much looked back for perhaps fifty or more years and in that time they never did listen to Behr much who was still writing and rewriting his essays basically based on the ultra-importance of naturalism in golf architecture right into the 1950s.

Pete Dye might've been the first heavy-weight modern American architect to purposefully look back and to go back to the linksland to study them in what he was to do. But what fascinated him most? Of all things those rudimentary vestiges of man-made architecture that the earlier linksmen had left behind to support and buttress the things that were mostly natural.

Geoff Shackelford concluded in his essay "What happened to the Revolution?";

      "But this does not mean that certain influential people with certain tastes can't at least dream of the possibilities and even to carry them out.
      This would be a start.
      And a start is all you need to spark a revolution."

I don't think we need some historian fifty years from now to tell us the "Revolution" that those Golden Agers were dreaming of finally has started. We can see it all around us now. It started about 60 years after their own revolution virtually ground to a halt in the Crash followed by the Depression and WW2 and then went off in remarkably different directions for about the next fifty years.

But real cycles never last much more than that and so it was probably inevitable that another one would begin again along about now. Some are surely looking back again today to where it all began in the Scottish linksland and the English heathlands.

Will this cycle sweep the world of golf and the art form of architecture? In my opinion, NEVER! But it will grab a significant enough slice of it to be truly worthwhile.

I think the trick in the future for golf architecture is for the guys who are doing this type of thing now to keep pushing the envelope now that construction technology is here to allow them to do it so much better and more comprehensively than even the best of the Golden Agers ever could. I think naturalism in architecture will get even better than it ever has been in the past, even with the best of the Golden Age and the dream of those old guys as GeoffShac outlined it may then come true.

But I think the real trick in the future is for all of us to finally learn from all our mistakes in the last half or last 3/4 of the last century---and that is to treat it right---to maintain it in both play and in look the way it was built to be---even if that may mean treating and maintaining it very differently from the way they treat and maintain whatever else it is that co-exists with it.

And if that can ever happen golf and golf architecture will be a whole lot richer and a whole lot better than it's EVER been before, in my opinion.  
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 03:15:35 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2005, 03:12:14 PM »

Tom,

That's a great point and something I tried to bring up on the Hidden Creek thread.  

Do you feel that many of the holes at HC offer the potential of "wide scoring spectrums"?  I certainly don't.

Then how would you explain my double bogie on # 3 and my triple bogie on # 4 ?

How would you explain my birdie on # 8 and two fellows double bogieing the hole ?

Or, on # 15, two fellows making triples and worse ?

If those aren't wide scoring spectrums I don't know what else is.

You're confusing, or trying to insert penal golf into the fray.
There is no water in play at Hidden Creek,  There is no out-of-bounds, and, the woods are cut far back from the playing corridors, hence the lack of those penalty strokes compresses the scoring spectrum.

If the scoring spectrum didn't exist I would have continued to shoot in the 60's as I did the first time I played HC.
How do you explain my scores in the 80's ?
Just bad luck, time and time again ?  ;D

Because you don't recognize it doesn't mean that it's not there.
[/color]


Mike_Cirba

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2005, 03:26:28 PM »
"Then how would you explain my double bogie on # 3 and my triple bogie on # 4 ?"

Patrick,

Did I leave my wedge in your bag?  ;)


TEPaul

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2005, 03:26:44 PM »
"The difference between 3 and 5 is not what is classically referred to as a "wide distribution of scoring".  

MikeC:

The "Scoring Spectrum Theory" to measure the interest and quality of a golf hole is about one year old and already we have the fact that's it's 'classically referred to'?? My, my, things do evolve rapidly on here, don't they?

From 3 to 5 for a good player? Well, if we're talking about a par 4 and that happens with some regularity then, yes, I would say that's a decent "scoring spectrum".

RTJ's phrase of "hard par, easy bogie" is a catchy little phrase (he was very good with those catchy little phrases because they got instant attention and sold things like his name, him and his courses. But it sounds like RTJ is speaking of the good player level and it sounds like he means a hard par---eg 4, and an easy bogie---eg 5 which is precisely half the scoring spectrum of 3 to 5!  ;)

I don't know about you but the RTJ courses I've played on like The London Hunt G.C. that I played for about ten years and won the biggest individual stroke play tournament of my career sure was a course I never made that many birdies but very rarely made an double bogies either!  ;)

(there was a very good reason I made very few double bogies and not that many birdies on that RTJ course. I always figured I was a bit too short to even think about getting tempted by some of his so-called "heroic" stuff (his own term for combining in architecture the "penal" with the "strategic") so I pretty much just avoided thinking about it and plodded right on down the middle all day long, year after year. Maybe it wasn't that exciting for some but I liked it and it was pretty much all I could do anyway).
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 03:34:30 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2005, 03:34:56 PM »
Mike Cirba,

One of the things I love about golf is that no one else's hands are gripping the golf club.  The player alone has the ultimate responsibility for his thought process, shot selection and execution of his shot.

I made two mental mistakes on # 3 and one mental mistake on # 4 which led to those scores.

Your wedge is innocent. ;D

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 12
Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2005, 03:49:35 PM »
I don't really think that TRYING to be revolutionary is going to be successful ... I think it's easy to try too hard and build features that are just too silly for the educated taste.  (Remember that Tom Simpson quote?)  I think a lot of architects in recent years have tried, with varying degrees of success.

You are much more likely to pull that stuff off if you are doing it because you have a level of comfort with it and because you think it really fits the ground you've got.  I think having spent a year in the UK and Ireland was a huge help to me in that regard, and to Gil Hanse as well, because we really believe that holes like the Pit at North Berwick are not beyond the pale if they are well executed.  And I've been able to build some wild stuff at Lost Dunes and Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle and Ballyneal without it feeling like a stretch.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:"What Happened to the Revolution?"
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2005, 04:01:43 PM »
Tom Doak,

I'd agree.  

Revolutionary designs are laden with friction and resistance.

Evolutionary designs seem more widely accepted, yesterday, today and into the future.