National Treasure

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

He was.

The foot pad remains intact, Olsen didn't reconstruct it or add on to the existing structure.

[George_Bahto]

#1 green pad has not changed.

Originally the 2nd tee was a part of the 1st green - a great feature.

You could putt from the 2nd tee area on the 1st green to anyplace on the green because it was cropped so short.

I guess the thinking is/was that it was too dangerous (oh, those lawyers) .... so it is no longer used.

I seriously doubt that anything was done to the old 2nd tee area or the area behind it (which was part of the 1st green anyhow).

I'll be up there next week and will find out EXACTLY what was done so you guys will quit arguing about all this little stuff.

Many great things are planned by Bill Salinetti and the course will continue to improve.

Bill, with the blessing of the administration, is doing a masterful job of continuing the restoration of the course that started with Karl.

The exposing of the sand hills Macdonald had as part of his original intent, by Bill and his crew, continues and the appearance adds greatly to the ambience of the course.  A lot of info about certain course features appears on an old plan I've had and it has been helpful in understanding what Macdonald envisioned his course to be.

New tees on 12 add a great deal of difficulty to the hole.

The new 14th tee creates a great new line of play to 14 fairgreen (as it was called) and the carry will be tough.

One of the more interesting new looks, to me, is the wide open look of the tee-ball on 11. It leaves a lot of doubt in your mind about the intended line of play ..... Charlie Macdonald would love it, for sure.

I cannot praise the Bill's green expansion enuf!!!!!! The green pad and their surrounds are textbook for the supers who are in charge of the old classic courses.

I spend a day out at NGLA late last fall re-photo-ing the course, sans trees, and it was interesting because (luckily) day or so before, Bill had marked out (paint) yet further expansion and the connection to the green surrounds. I'm in SC right now but next week I'll post some of the more interesting shots I took.

That you can see completely across the course is astounding (for those who do not know, it is 9 holes out and nine back in with a liitle hook up to the 18th hole). All interior trees GONE - even the ones that were camouflaging the service road.

To me, even more interesting - or at least AS interesting - as the Bill's green expansion program is the wonderful green-surround, short-cropped, areas. These areas keep getting more and more expansive, and the look is so very nice and the interesting playability of the surrounds when your shots misses the greens will leave a lot of play options - bump and runs and putting.

it continues ................  

[TEPaul]

George:

You're right about those reconstituted short cropped areas around the greens. At last year's Singles I hit a shot that hit the left side of the green and slipped way down that closed cropped area to the left of the left bunker. Then I hit what I thought was a pretty good little bump shot up the close cropped bank but it didn't get quite far enough up there and my next shot was from the left bunker!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

George BAhto,

Don't forget about the spine, (now covered by rough) along the right side of the 5th fairway about 80 yards from the green and the abandoned bunker it was meant to feed.

[TEPaul]

"Don't forget about the spine, (now covered by rough) along the right side of the 5th fairway about 80 yards from the green and the abandoned bunker it was meant to feed."

George:

This is why it's virtually impossible to teach Patrick Mucci anything. A big bunker about 80 yards from the 5th green and about 40 yards right and wide of the original fairway line??

Patrick can't tell the difference between a bunker and some old cut pit way out short and right of the green C.B. obviously used to get fill to build the 5th green!  

I tried to tell him that but he wouldn't listen. He saw what he thought was a cool spine coming at that cut pit and figured it had to be an old abandoned bunker. If you see Doak ask him if he can build a bunker at Sebonac to catch a ball way short and right on #5 NGLA.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

You'll have to forgive TEPaul, his guide dog Coorshaw was sick that day and he had to navigate by cane.

He's refering to the pit to the far, far right, which may have been a soil source, I'm refering to the BUNKER just to the right of the spine that borders the right side fairway line.

A line that many choose to take advantage of so that the right side slope can feed their ball back to the green.  
That spine and bunker were meant to direct and catch balls hit slightly off of that line.  The recovery from that bunker is made somewhat easier due to the nature of the intervening slope which runs to the green.

George, I try so hard to teach TE, but, even when he gets it, which is rare, 30 minutes later he forgets, and I have to start all over again.

He's been playing NGLA for 30 years and never knew that bunker and spine complex were there until I pointed it out to him in October of 2003, and now look, in less than two years he's forgotten about them and is confusing the area with a pit in the woods 60 yards away.

Ran pays me extra to keep him in line, but after years of hard labor and not much in the way of results, I definitely need a raise.

[Glen Rapoport]

Tommy,

could you tell us what camera and lens you are using for your photograps at National.

Thanks.

[Tyler Kearns]

Tommy,

could you tell us what camera and lens you are using for your photograps at National.

...and then supply us with some more.  

TK

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Glen,
I took these with my small Canon A70 with the standard lense, no filter, and then processed in Photoshop with a technique I learned in class that makes it look as if the image was taken with Velvia slide film. Its obvious what images I have spliced together, and for some reason my hand isn't what it used to be in combination imagesQ

Tyler, Ask and you shall recieve!  At least YOU care about the golf architecture...

#16 Punchbowl


Looking towards the Bay from #11 Fairway.



#17

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Show me that bunker on #5 80 yards short of the green you're referring to on any old aerial or on any of the old drawings or plans and I'll be more than happy to agree with you.

GeorgeB:

I may've asked you this once before but do you know when that E.J. Raisz (of Columbia University) drawing was done that's in the back of the reprint of C.B's Book "Scotland's Gift Golf"? Also, the original course blueprint in your book is very interesting. I may've asked you this too but that course blueprint is not dated, is it?

[gholland]

Did CB have "Dew Paths" in the original design of NGLA? Were "Dew Paths" thought about in early design of courses or did they just naturally come about? Are today's supers of these Macdonald courses using "Dew paths" on many holes?

[TEPaul]

George:

Just recently I saw a series of pretty old photos that had dew paths in them. I wish I could remember at the moment what they were of. If I can think of it I'll let you know. Sounds like you're thinking of dew paths at the Creek. Go for it---they're very functional. Matter of fact it's a beautiful morning down here on the farm--the sun is just rising and I might go out and cut some dew paths around here. If you want some really natural looking dew paths at the Creek just get the John Deere ready for me and I'll be there to make them.  

[TEPaul]

TommyN;

If Bill Salinetti is in an "expanding mood" at NGLA, I'd love to see him expand that fairway on #17 to the left some. That light rough area out there is great "golf ground" and there's every good reason to put it back into fairway to get golfer's to use it particularly as there's a pond out to the left which isn't all that noticeable from the tee. I realize if one paced off from the far right to the far left of #17 fairway at the general LZ it might be about 110-120 yards so what's wrong with making it about 140?  

[gholland]

You're right on target.  Our super has the course in beautiful condition...grass is healthly and couldn't look better.  He has been cutting dew paths for the last couple of years and the question came up about just how they should look.  They are certainly functional but I may have to take you up on your offer to man the John Deere and cut "some really natural looking dew paths".  Isn't the natural look what Macdonald wanted rather than the geometric, sharply cut, linear swath straight down from the tee?  What would CB have wanted?

[George_Bahto]

“I may've asked you this once before but do you know when that E.J. Raisz (of Columbia University) drawing was done that's in the back of the reprint of C.B's Book "Scotland's Gift Golf?"

There are actually two versions of the Raisz drawing Tom, the one in the book and another that was published in a magazine (actually both versions were published in the same magazine at different times).

The difference in the one not in the book sort of dates it. The captions reads: “A complete map of the course as it is today ....... .

* Other differences in the drawing are that former “swamp areas” show as “ponds”

* in the book drawing, the pond in the area that is labeled “Site of the Practice Course” was made larger.

Note: that area is not a practice range ..... is the site of the practice course and on the second drawing I have the 3 holes of the Practice Course are drawn in.  Very cool.

Also on the “second” drawing, aside from the “E.J. Raisz  Columbia University ..... there is the name of the S’hampton surveyor’s office name.

.... the second published article was from 1930  - so the one in the book is would be earlier, probably 1925-26, if the book was published in ‘28/’29


TomP continues: ....  Also, the original course blueprint in your book is very interesting. I may've asked you this too but that course blueprint is not dated, is it?

That is the greatest piece, in my opinion. The corner where the “key” info would normally be is missing (deterioration) ..... but this is big-time early for many reasons.

It was the working drawing on which CBM marked in, in yellow crayon, where he was thinking his hazards might me ...... “might be” because there are corrections in India ink all over the plan where he covered over the some of the crayon marks indicating he changed his mind.

The are no fairways (fairgreens) drawn in but there are elevation #’s every 50 yards of so (which I recorded).  

[George_Bahto]

sorry I didn't paste in the whole second answer.

TomP continues: ."Also, the original course blueprint in your book is very interesting. I may've asked you this too but that course blueprint is not dated, is it?"


That is the greatest piece, in my opinion. The corner where the “key” info would normally be is missing (deterioration) ..... but this is big-time early for many reasons.

It was the working drawing on which CBM marked in, in yellow crayon, where he was thinking his hazards might me ...... “might be” because there are corrections in India ink all over the plan where he covered over the some of the crayon marks indicating he changed his mind.

The are no fairways (fairgreens) drawn in but there are elevation #’s every 50 yards of so (which I recorded).  

It was from this piece that I first saw the original tees on 7, 12 etc ...... which lined up with the original scorecard I have.

Main thing is that it had the original name of the course and the original routing numbered beginning on present hole #10.

So it has to be 1907 or earlier.......... the original concept drawing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It's about 45 yards right and short of the green, with the far pit or bunker being 80 yards away from the center of the green.

As to widening # 17 fairway to the left, that's a terrible idea.
Widening that fairway further left would weaken the hole and diminsh the value the central features designed to challenge the player.

Please, keep you hands off of NGLA.

George Bahto,

Tell me that they didnt fool with the 16th green .... please.

[George_Bahto]

Pat, I don't think anything is going to be done with 16-green - I guess you're talking about the ridge around the outer ring of the green ?

[George_Bahto]

The right side of the approach to 5 green - along the fairway:

It seems a good idea to expand that area of fairway to the left a few yards to the right to incorporate the nice ridge-line out there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

It's a wonderful correction and deflection spine.

A ball hit on the left side of the spine would filter to the green,
A ball hit to the right side of the spne would be fed to the bunker.

And, the best part is that it would only take a little mowing and perhaps a little sand for the bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Take a look at page 94 in George Bahto's book, "The Eveangelist of Golf" and tell me what you see.

Must I show you everything ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I forgot to post this last night. (The recovered bunker right on #5)



Tom, Talking with Bill, he does plan on restoring/recapturing/revitalizing some interesting features on the left there on #17.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Regarding expanding the 17th fairway left compared to that photo TommyN posted above---what would you say if that fairway expansion was a restoration of fairway space? The idea is that the left side of the big carry bunker is progressively farther off the tee so why not use that distance over it as carry distance into fairway which it appears it once was? The rough line on the left in that photo above makes the hole on the left side (and the options) look truncated. If that was fairway, I say restore it to bring back the maximum carry distance over the bunker on the left as a legitimate option as well as that left side bunker and pond more into play as hazard features. Otherwise they aren't as strategically functional. And don't tell me to keep my hands off NGLA---aren't you the one who recommended moving Macdonald's Gate to get more distance on #18?? That's a bit more severe than cutting rough back into fairway!

That's also why I asked GeorgeB what the date of those Raisz drawings were. Since I've never seen aerials of the course from the 1920s and 1930s those drawings (and a few other documents) may serve as appropriate research base.

What do I see on page 94 of GeorgeB's book? I see a drawing of the 5th hole by GeorgeB. GeorgeB has done a bang-up job reserching, documenting and writing on NGLA but GeorgeB and C.B. Macdonald are not exactly one and the same---not yet anyway. Again, that's why I asked GeorgeB about the date of that Raisz drawing. If it's early it's certainly possible Macdonald added a bunker in that area later---but perhaps he never did. It's not always the best policy to just assume when one sees a pit or a depression on the ground it once was a sand bunker used strategically. It's certainly possible that it may have been just a cut used for fill to build something--like a green!

I'm all for research on a course such as NGLA. Find it specifically first and let it tell you a story of what once was before you go changing things in the name of restoration.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

You may want to speak with Craig Disher, he probably has some aerials of NGLA in the late 1930s through 1950.

Craig and I are going out to CC York on Tuesday the 31st if you want to join us.  We'll be scouting the proposed Flynn holes and studying the actual Ross ones.  Can you make it?

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I would've like to have gone to York very much but I have to officiate at the State Better Ball at White Manor Tuesday and Wednesday. The commute to White Manor suits too---I could just as easily walk to the course.  

I'd love to see an aerial of NGLA towards the mid to late 1930s. What could be a better representation of all that Macdonald did on that course? Like Merion East or Pinehurst #2 Macdonald did work on improving that golf course for almost 30 years. And, in my opinion, understanding what he did there and perhaps even why is completely necessary before one begins to make recommendations for the restoration of that course now or changes to it.

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